tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post6132583388548633772..comments2023-09-18T04:45:52.991-07:00Comments on Ask the Scientologist: Scientology And The Wrong "Why"Just Billhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00700571144527474381noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-87622283783151650812015-12-04T18:07:57.153-08:002015-12-04T18:07:57.153-08:00Answer one question if the source believed his the...Answer one question if the source believed his thetan left his body when he died and entered into another body then there should be someone on the E- Meter claiming<br />his past life was L Ron Hubbard where is he they claim there allegiance to scientology for a billion years. If he died in 1986 and he entered into a newborn that would put <br />him at 29 years old.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-66729332999067845622011-01-20T19:15:50.163-08:002011-01-20T19:15:50.163-08:00After reading the comments I have to say that thos...After reading the comments I have to say that those who justify their actions by blaming the system or others, all fall under the category of themselves being the problem. I am not a $ientologist but have been subjected to their ruse as an SP and through disconnection by dear family members. The truth is not what most people want to see, hear or know but Miscavaige could have never come to power, muchless run the church, had it not been with the willing co-operation and blessings of the majority. Remember that Hitler was legally elected by the majority of Germans and of course, none of them were to blame for his actions.<br /><br />Johnny Rebel<br />Defender of Free Speech<br />In the former Republic of the united States of AmericaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-84429868714675179242010-11-09T21:55:02.492-08:002010-11-09T21:55:02.492-08:00This was truly brilliant:
"Which were you, d...This was truly brilliant:<br /><br />"Which were you, dear Scientologist? Were you the one who applauded while your church was destroyed? Were you one of those who disconnected from your parents, your friends, your children? Did you help the church destroy innocent people? Or did you just turn away, hoping "things would get better" and didn't say anything?<br /><br />Were you the coward, or the enabler? How many of your principles did you fail to uphold? When did you decide it was too hard to be honest and decent? How did you help in the destruction of Scientology and your fellow Scientologists?"<br /><br />You and Jeff are doing really great analysis. Thank you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-74649676327439364012010-11-08T10:59:11.441-08:002010-11-08T10:59:11.441-08:00@John Peeler
I think your point about the real wo...@John Peeler<br /><br />I think your point about the real world being (according to Hubbard) a product of the reactive mind is an interesting one. It certainly is part of the reason they wall themselves away from the real world and may be a large factor in their rejection of facts and evidence in favor of belief and faith.Just Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00700571144527474381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-79529667860933621662010-11-08T10:44:35.929-08:002010-11-08T10:44:35.929-08:00Just Bill,
I don't know if I ever commented o...Just Bill,<br /><br />I don't know if I ever commented on your blog before, but you're doing a great job of explaining it like I'd like to say it, and probably many others. You keep nailing it. I'd like to add what I think may be a big part of the "Why."<br /><br />L. Ron Hubbard declared WAR against the "reactive mind" and then recruited an army to go to battle (the Scientologist). Like the "War on Terror" or the "War on Drugs" it's a never ending battle that will never be won. Every policy letter ever written by Hubbard was from the frame of mind as a military General or Admiral especially SO Flag Orders. And of course "Orders is Orders." Scientology will never get anywhere as long as they continue to be at WAR. But you can't get the WAR out of Scientology because it is the foundation it rests upon. In a war, one will always have enemies. The world will never be Scientology's ally, because the world has already been labeled as the enemy. Hubbard and the Scientologist have already dubbed in the Real World as being a product of the Reactive Mind. The "Why" is Hubbard's initial declaration of War. Marty and the Indy's despite being out of the CoS are really just renegades in the SAME war under the command of Commodore LRH.<br /><br />Does this make sense?John Peelernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-57665684842099632842010-11-05T00:48:29.141-07:002010-11-05T00:48:29.141-07:00@ Just Bill
Re: Super Authority
There is a way ar...@ Just Bill<br />Re: Super Authority<br /><br />There is a way around that problem: dynastic succession. Just as in North Korea, L. Ron should have equipped his sons with the power to run the organization after he "dropped the body." Yes I know he drove Nibs away, and Quentin to suicide, and it would have revealed that the tech was a fraud, but the only autocratic way to keep a guy like Miscavage out was by passing the Commodore's cap to the son who wanted it. The non-"Sword in the Stone" way to keep Slappy away would have been to form a "survival board" of trustworthy people and let them run the Church after Hubbard was gone. It's my understanding that there was something like the survival board in place when Hubbard died, but Miscavage subverted it, then took over.<br /><br />[BTW, what has been going on in North Korea is an absolute farce of how even a Stalinist government should work; juche, the idiotic stories about the "miracles" that "happened" when Kim Jong Il was born, the state's use of Confucianism without calling it that - it's no longer a Communist country, but a variant of the degenerated Ba'athism Saddam Hussein practiced in Iraq, where all the top slots are filled with relatives of the lider maximo and the cronyism can be felt three countries away.]Strelnikovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12660962615198939441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-71466555068137743642010-11-04T14:34:15.140-07:002010-11-04T14:34:15.140-07:00@Anonymous
All very good points. You are so righ...@Anonymous<br /><br />All very good points. You are <i>so</i> right, if it hadn't been David Miscavige, it would have been someone else destroying the organization -- because it really is built into the system.Just Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00700571144527474381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-604895970399234732010-11-04T14:02:36.098-07:002010-11-04T14:02:36.098-07:00I think it is fair to blame scientologists for the...I think it is fair to blame scientologists for their problems because at the end of the day people have to take responsibility for their own actions. <br /><br />However I suspect that a large amount of scientology's problems (in addition to most of it being nuts) really lie in the organisational structure and culture. If DM wasn't the psycho in charge it would be someone else just like him. I think this is one of the most interesting aspects of the whole issue. I think it is even more interesting because I don't think the situation in side scientology is unique or even unusual, just more extreme than most. From my experience many of these issues exist in many a large corporation which often seem to exhibit some of the cult characteristics you mentioned in your previous post.<br /><br />Large corporations (and other organisations) are full of people at all levels who just don't want to rock the boat about issues they see around them. They have mortgages to pay and families to look after and in the end it just isn't their job to sort out wider problems. I suspect that it is the same in scientology. But then if no one speaks up there is no limit to the outrages that can be carried out in such an organisation.<br /><br />I think it is not generally realised just how rare it is to find someone who is able to think against their whole peer group and say so.<br /><br />It would be interesting to know how the Pope went from being just a bishop to God's representative on earth. Maybe a dark ages DM is to blame?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-74622954297917029432010-11-03T16:51:31.367-07:002010-11-03T16:51:31.367-07:00Okay, I am reassured!
I also see your point about ...Okay, I am reassured!<br />I also see your point about moving people out of the rigid viewpoint one step at a time. The main goal is to prevent further abuse, for sure.Vera Keilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-12583381530500172792010-11-02T12:27:49.566-07:002010-11-02T12:27:49.566-07:00@Vera Keil
One additional note on this: I urge S...@Vera Keil<br /><br />One additional note on this: I urge Scientologists to find out and fix what is wrong with Scientology for two reasons.<br /><br />First, because it is healthy for them to get the idea that almost all the problems they are seeing are <i>not</i> because <i>they</i> are "out ethics" but are because Scientology is very flawed. It would help free them.<br /><br />Second, if Scientologists <i>did</i> remove the abusive, flawed bits, Scientology would cease being a cult and mostly cease harming so many people.Just Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00700571144527474381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-37219692872262430892010-11-02T12:13:50.226-07:002010-11-02T12:13:50.226-07:00@Vera Keil
On the contrary, the best con is one t...@Vera Keil<br /><br />On the contrary, the best con is one that, at least initially, actually works. A number of the lower level Scientology "assists" and such <i>may</i> produce good results in some people. And just about every auditing session produces a temporary feeling of euphoria in true believers.<br /><br />It is phenomena like this that convince people that "Scientology works". If it <i>never</i> worked on anyone, no one would become entrapped.<br /><br />And, <i>because</i> there is this phenomena, I'm in favor of more study of it to find out why, and how.<br /><br />Don't worry, I haven't forgotten that Scientology has failed to actually produce <i>any</i> of the <i>miraculous results</i> Hubbard promised.Just Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00700571144527474381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-53069576189161670112010-11-02T12:01:43.037-07:002010-11-02T12:01:43.037-07:00Just Bill, I thought you agreed with many of us on...Just Bill, I thought you agreed with many of us on here that everything invented by a conman is a con--so how could Scientology 'work' for anyone, at anytime? <br /><br />Hubbard stole everything from the Bhavagad Gita, esoteric Buddhism (Noh theatre, for example), early psychoanalytic theory and the Catholic confession ritual. There is no "there" there in Scientology. It is nothing.<br /><br />If past lives exist, and there is no evidence they do, then perhaps what we recognized in Scientology was the stolen material we had previously studied. Who knows?Vera Keilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-3927863678803054272010-11-02T07:36:36.311-07:002010-11-02T07:36:36.311-07:00@Just Bruce
Thank you. You make some very good p...@Just Bruce<br /><br />Thank you. You make some very good points. I agree. A system like Scientology, built as it was on One Super Authority, cannot exist, <i>in that form</i>, after that person has gone -- unless, as you say, they find another One Super Authority -- or change the system. Since change was forbidden, I guess they had to find another Super Authority.<br /><br />Interesting point.<br /><br />I'm not sure I was "blaming" Scientologists so much as asking that they recognize their part in all this. Maybe their acceptance of Miscavige was "inevitable" but it was still a very poor decision -- and their acceptance of all the evil after that is 100% their responsibility.<br /><br />Unless they recognize their responsibility in this, <i>and</i> admit the flaws in Scientology that make all this possible (and I'd say inevitable), it will happen again and again.Just Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00700571144527474381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-19294972811712769262010-11-01T21:02:52.319-07:002010-11-01T21:02:52.319-07:00Excellent article, Just Bill.
Well, I'll take...Excellent article, Just Bill.<br /><br />Well, I'll take a stab at it. While I don't disagree that scientologists have allowed, condoned, and abetted David Miscavaige in his destruction of the church, I don't think that laying the blame all upon scientologists collectively really answers your very apt question:<br /><br /><i>What, in Scientology, allowed a sociopath to gain power unopposed?</i><br /><br />In 1965, LRH issued the policy Keeping Scientology Working. Aside from the admonitions and the points 1-10, the policy is written in a tone suggestiong LRH was pretty peeved. In this policy, LRH also elevates himself <i>waaaaay</i> above us mere mortals with such statements like, "We will not speculate here on how I came to rise above the bank".<br /><br />In order to be a scientologist, you have to pretty much abide by KSW 1 like it was gospel from God. Scientologists have been run thru a filter of sorts: if they stick around, they have bought into KSW 1; if they don't agree, they go on their way.<br /><br />So, scientologists collectively have this similar flaw in their thinking, something along the line of, "If LRH said it, <i>it IS true</i>, and don't try to change it or have your own <i>'new ideas'</i> or you are gonna create trouble for ALL your dynamics."<br /><br />So, now we have this Single Authority Figure, who can pretty much say what scientlogy is or isn't. Hell, any topic at all he ever uttered anything about becomes gospel.<br /><br />Well, when LRH died, he left a gaping hole: OMITTED RON. Omitted "guy with all the answers". Sheesh, what now?<br /><br />Quick, get another Single Authority Figure, preferably someone who worked personally with him, is powerful in demeanor, a take-charge kind of guy.<br /><br />After seeing Miscavaige in action for a couple of years and seeing him launch the Freewinds and such, scientologists heaved a collective sigh of relief: the subject could go on and they could continue up the bridge.<br /><br />Whereas the above my not be the why, it is certainly closer to it than "Miscavaige done it."Just Brucenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-85152489096431371682010-11-01T14:53:34.519-07:002010-11-01T14:53:34.519-07:00@Vera Keil
Thanks for your comment. However, the...@Vera Keil<br /><br />Thanks for your comment. However, the "it" I am referring to is <i>not</i> "cleaning up the Cos". I, personally, think that is impossible, and a waste of time. It is damaged beyond repair.<br /><br />The "it" was, more specifically, "clean up Scientology". Scientologists have to <i>see</i> and admit all the failures of Scientology before they can make the necessary changes. If they don't, everything that happened to the church will happen to every Scientology group in the future.Just Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00700571144527474381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-71384599359062457082010-11-01T13:36:42.961-07:002010-11-01T13:36:42.961-07:00I've also noticed the response of Scientologis...I've also noticed the response of Scientologists at protests when the abuses are brought to their attention is invariably "I wouldn't know about that." or "That hasn't been my experience." As if they are not responsible if someone else is harmed by the church. And it is not their responsibility to look into it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-6079649045099241812010-11-01T13:13:23.507-07:002010-11-01T13:13:23.507-07:00"Judging by the last thirty years, you (Scien..."Judging by the last thirty years, you (Scientologists) have neither the courage, the honesty nor the decency to do it(clean up CoS). As long as you keep insisting on the wrong "Who" and the wrong "Why" -- excuses for why you're not responsible -- you will never be able to stop the inevitable destruction of Scientology."<br /><br />Well said. I would add that the lies, powermongering and abuses perpetrated in Scientology are because a significant number of Scientologists are sociopaths. Some organizations (maybe only a few, I don't know) have ways of rooting out sociopaths, but the Church of Scientology embraces and promotes them. Many who won't leave or who are trying to start a 'new' Scientology don't want to give up the enabling of their worst traits. That's my opinion.Vera Keilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-60952407303205218192010-11-01T12:29:28.772-07:002010-11-01T12:29:28.772-07:00Excellent assessment... you put into words all the...Excellent assessment... you put into words all the frustrations i struggle with when i read stuff from the outside Scientologists.<br /><br />Likely just wishful thinking, but I hold out hope that sooner or later legal proceedings will bring something out into the light of day that will rock peoples perception enough to knock off the blinders of denial.AnonLoverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17230190228115011502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-41617618505065688332010-11-01T09:56:43.825-07:002010-11-01T09:56:43.825-07:00Re: Basic conundrum
That truly is the basic probl...Re: Basic conundrum<br /><br />That truly <i>is</i> the basic problem: How to tell someone they are not in touch with the truth when they are <i>certain</i> they, and they <i>alone</i>, know the <i>real</i> truth -- and that everyone else in the whole world is wrong.<br /><br />I sincerely believe that almost all Scientologists are aware, at some level, that <i>something</i> is very wrong in Scientology. That is why they get so very, very defensive when you point out the inconsistencies and disconnects -- you point those out and they feel their whole universe start to crumble -- because they know these are true.Just Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00700571144527474381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-69266140173888292582010-11-01T07:56:01.476-07:002010-11-01T07:56:01.476-07:00I agree that Scientology includes a lot of cultish...I agree that Scientology includes a lot of cultish thought control features, Bill, but I think your response "re: I was duped" is just as important: it takes two to tango, and Scientologists are mostly at least partially willing victims. Scientologists want to believe, so they allow themselves to be duped. <br /><br />They want to believe, so they empower whomever best helps them believe. Since the tech doesn't actually work, nothing beats lying as a way to help people believe in it. So the Church ends up led by the best liar it can find.<br /><br />I don't necessarily fault Scientologists for wanting to believe in it. And I'm not saying I'd have done any better at insisting on truth over wishes, if I had even been sucked into the cult. But for what it's worth, given my lack of personal experience, I think your point stands and is important: Scientologists must share some measure of responsibility for their situation, because Miscavige has no power but what Scientologists have freely given him.James Anglinhttp://quantenthermodynamik.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-34077182270672727442010-11-01T07:33:39.209-07:002010-11-01T07:33:39.209-07:00Re: I was duped
Yes, that would have been my answ...Re: I was duped<br /><br />Yes, that would have been my answer a few years ago. But I don't think that's quite it. I'd say I <i>allowed myself</i> to be duped.<br /><br />All the information that one needs is right there. To continue being a Scientologist, I had to close my eyes to so many things. I had to suppress all those feelings of "That's not right!"<br /><br />No, if I'd been honest, I would have recognized the truth. I <i>wanted</i> to believe and so I allowed myself to be duped.Just Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00700571144527474381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-46589046558483925612010-11-01T07:29:56.844-07:002010-11-01T07:29:56.844-07:00@James Anglin
To an outsider, the persistence of ...@James Anglin<br /><br />To an outsider, the persistence of church members in the face of everything must be a mystery. The simplistic answer is <i>control</i>. See <a href="http://askthescientologist.blogspot.com/2010/08/scientology-and-control.html" rel="nofollow">Scientology and Control</a> and, of course, <a href="http://askthescientologist.blogspot.com/2010/10/scientologists-can-you-remove-cult-from.html" rel="nofollow">my latest</a>. Once a Scientologist buys into the dogma, it sets up an automatic, self-reinforcing, thought-control mechanism -- the more they feel attacked, the tighter they control their thoughts.<br /><br />The key information that a Scientologist needs to get out of that trap is information they <i>cannot look at</i>.Just Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00700571144527474381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-67309635649080007692010-11-01T07:21:42.419-07:002010-11-01T07:21:42.419-07:00Bill, excellent article.
You and Pogo have summed ...Bill, excellent article.<br />You and Pogo have summed it up correctly: "We have met the enemy and he is us." Looking back at my failures to take responsibility when I should have for the Church's erroneous behavior I see several things. If you are trying to get through a course or a level of auditing it is much easier and certainly tremendously less expensive to put on your blinders, do what you have to do to get through, not make waves and thus stay out of Review and the Ethics Division. When the Sea Org would come to Saint Hill and take over the course rooms you maintained a very low sort of invisible profile and if you were smart you did NOTHING. By that I mean no discourse with the Sea Org Gestapo and no auditing of others. You were blasted for making mistakes in auditing and trying to help others but nothing happened and you fared much better if you simply did not audit. After each S.O. mission the statistics would, of course, crash.<br />The entire system is geared to punish you physically, mentally and financially for not going along with the flow or thrust of the Church. Want to really get in trouble....point out to the Church staff the reference(s) showing their actions are incorrect. Many people I know were booted out of the Church for doing what you are supposed to do. The Old GeezerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-27297885485154404762010-11-01T05:38:02.169-07:002010-11-01T05:38:02.169-07:00Great stuff, Bill, that was really powerful. But t...Great stuff, Bill, that was really powerful. But the basic conundrum remains: How do you tell people who're not thinking straight that they're not thniking straight?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-87863434974642447812010-11-01T05:03:51.064-07:002010-11-01T05:03:51.064-07:00As an outsider critic, I have always wondered how ...As an outsider critic, I have always wondered how David Miscavige has kept power for so long. Why have so many Scientologists been willing to do what he says, or even just kept on giving him the benefit of the doubt whenever they hear the negative rumors they must have been hearing? I assume it must be because Miscavige provides something they want, and provides it well enough that he has no competition. What is it he provides?<br /><br />My guess is: he provides belief. Whether it's because he's an expert cynical manipulator, or because he's just too ignorant or self-absorbed to know better, he paints a brighter picture of Scientology than anyone else can. Anyone more aware or more honest would have to admit grave faults in a system that basically does not work; but Miscavige pitches straight-up-and-vertical good news with a perfectly straight face.<br /><br />I think maybe that's what has kept him in power. Scientologists want to be lied to, so they support the best liar they've got.James Anglinhttp://quantenthermodynamik.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.com