tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post5844429235695810679..comments2023-09-18T04:45:52.991-07:00Comments on Ask the Scientologist: Scientology: Selling Invisible ThingsJust Billhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00700571144527474381noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-78752321934784412642010-12-08T10:04:19.357-08:002010-12-08T10:04:19.357-08:00@Squash Lady
Thanks for your comment. Your exper...@Squash Lady<br /><br />Thanks for your comment. Your experience seems to be somewhat typical. "Something" happened, but not much and certainly not the <i>promised</i> results.<br /><br />Did you <i>ever</i> even have a "reactive mind" in the first place? Something happened, but what?<br /><br />Without independent research, we'll never know what, if anything, happened to us.<br /><br />I suspect that, now that Scientology is such a laughing stock, no legitimate researcher will <i>ever</i> take a look at the technology.Just Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00700571144527474381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-87592574614507836402010-12-07T21:31:09.598-08:002010-12-07T21:31:09.598-08:00I attested Clear back in 1979.
On the plus side, ...I attested Clear back in 1979. <br />On the plus side, I can say that something did happen and I have felt significantly different since then. <br />However, my new state did not fit the DSMH definition of Clear and this baffled me.<br />However, something had happen that seemed to me quite extraordinary. It was as if there had been a geodesic dome-like structure in my space composed of thought and at some point in my auditing, the whole structure went poof. It was enormously liberating. <br />But was I free from my reactive mind? I don't know.I still respond reactively to some experiences, so wouldn't that mean I still have a reactive mind? <br />At the time, this thing that happened seemed like a good thing. It left me feeling as if I were cause over my mind, I felt empowered. But that "feeling" has not translated into happiness or success. The rest of my Bridge has not gone so well.<br />So it is baffling.Squash Ladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08107266262858228787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-41591099256203538662010-09-09T07:35:08.306-07:002010-09-09T07:35:08.306-07:00Re: Not amazing
Well, yes. It is true that Scien...Re: Not amazing<br /><br />Well, yes. It is true that Scientology auditing <i>does</i> make some people <i>feel</i> better temporarily. And people will pay for that. But, in Scientology, there is more than that.<br /><br />People put up with a tremendous amount of abuse and donate tons of money to "fundraisers" just to keep from being kicked off "The Bridge". That's buying into a <i>lot</i> more than "feeling better".<br /><br />That's buying into all the promises that have never, ever been fulfilled.Just Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00700571144527474381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-6111449646825707602010-09-09T06:23:14.166-07:002010-09-09T06:23:14.166-07:00I'm not so sure that its all that amazing pay ...I'm not so sure that its all that amazing pay to have their "reactive mind" removed or at least the ill effects of something called the "reactive mind. <br /><br />After all, people spend money in droves on anything at all that will help to make them feel more comfortable, at ease, less pain, etc. Billion dollar illegal recreational drug industry, billion dollar legal drug industry, alcoholic beverages, medical intervention, on and on. I guess what I am saying is that people want to FEEL better and are willing to pay for things that make them FEEL better. Apparently auditing makes people FEEL better and I am not so sure that they really care whether phantom mind blips, reactive something or others, or just being listened to for once or placebos are the working factor. <br /><br />I was reading up on biofeedback machines the other day and learned that some medical centers are now using them with epilepsy patients. It seems that its very effective. Who the hell knows what exactly they are monitoring and some would say its just nonsense and placebo effect but they sure as hell are monitoring something and changing a condition. I don't think the feedback machine does anything at all except give the person feedback. Whatever happens, they do it and they pay handsomely for the privilege probably because it really is pretty obnoxious to find yourself writing around on a floor all of a sudden. They'd probably pay any fortune to make that go away.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-5596960732465334332010-09-09T03:17:45.803-07:002010-09-09T03:17:45.803-07:00This is a very good point, Just Bill. Once again, ...This is a very good point, Just Bill. Once again, great use of logic and critical thinking - I hadn't really looked at this in this way before!<br /><br />So looking at it like this, we can see that the person on the meter has a subjective experience which he understands and would describe one way. The auditor sees the phenomenon as a meter reaction that can be described another way. And to these occurrences is ATTRIBUTED the significance that the Reactive Mind is being erased.<br /><br />And analogy might be: Two people get into a car and drive until it runs out of gas. The passenger in the car knows nothing about machines or how they operate. He is told that the car has died and that the spirit of the car has left and gone The Great Parking Lot in the Sky. It makes sense within the passenger's paradigm, and he accepts this. It now becomes "fact" to him that this occurs, and that the phenomenon he experienced is "proof" of the explanation. Car's die and go to heaven - he was there! He saw it!Nancy Pnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-91423637626067875942010-09-08T06:42:16.837-07:002010-09-08T06:42:16.837-07:00Re: Reactive Mind
I think you missed the entire p...Re: Reactive Mind<br /><br />I think you missed the <i>entire</i> point of my article.<br /><br />I wasn't actually debating whether there exists a "Reactive Mind". I really wanted to avoid a theological discussion and just discuss the <i>selling</i> of it.<br /><br />Your model of the "Reactive Mind" does not match Hubbard's and, I am sure, other believers have yet <i>other</i> models. That's why debating theology is pretty useless -- without actual, verifiable evidence about something, faith, belief and theories are king.<br /><br />Dianetics/Scientology makes a big deal about, and charges a ton of money for, "removing your Reactive Mind", without any evidence that <i>anything happens at all</i>. Don't you find that amazing?Just Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00700571144527474381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-27705112276027810542010-09-08T05:14:16.024-07:002010-09-08T05:14:16.024-07:00Just Bill said: "Nothing the e-meter does pro...Just Bill said: "Nothing the e-meter does proves the existence of a thing called the Reactive Mind. Nothing the e-meter does proves the removal of a thing called the Reactive Mind. The e-meter may show that 'thoughts have charge' but, even if that's true, that does not say that there is a Reactive Mind."<br /><br />Your phrasing in this statement leads me to believe that you think of the reactive mind rather like a physical object, something that one can keep in a box in the closet, completely separated from everything else. Or perhaps you are objecting to people thinking that the reactive mind is a "thing." <br /><br />I thought it was just a model (analogy)describing memories that were not immediately or easily accessible that has a reactive element. Once the memories have been made routintely accessible, there are no further ill effects. i.e. the "reactive mind" isn't gone, only the reactive (uninspected) element is gone and the memories accessible just as the rest of the person's memory is accessible. <br /><br />I guess at that point it is just as invisible as routine memory -- really, I don't think I've ever "seen" anyone else's memory, but they still seem to remember things and I still seem to remember things. <br /><br />Can we measure what we remember? I think so. But not necessarily the way you would measure a pound of meat. Sure as hell something reacts on that emeter and it certainly appears to stop reacting after reviewing what was reacting.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-63866050662597775732010-09-06T14:11:45.848-07:002010-09-06T14:11:45.848-07:00Speaking of belief...
So much emphasis on belief....Speaking of belief...<br /><br />So much emphasis on belief. I used to have a big thing on all this until I realized that I had never personally SEEN a microwave, radio wave, atom, molecule, and so on. I'm pretty sure nobody else has either. But some of us have measured the effects and some of us have seen related phenomena and then described what they BELIEVE it is and what they BELIEVE it does and so on. As for me, I have spent a great deal of my life looking down the rabbit hole of quantum mechanics where it seems that nothing is what it seems and most words are inadequate. <br /><br />I think it would be nice to have such certainty and conviction as what I read about on this blog both pro and con. Its all in flux for me these days and while it seems to be much more truthful, I can never really be sure.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-43765016739180073922010-08-30T22:25:44.517-07:002010-08-30T22:25:44.517-07:00What a wonderful way of putting it. I thank you a...What a wonderful way of putting it. I thank you and your posts for helping to get me out!RontheConhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11363502939557114642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-45563933645371936412010-08-30T19:46:31.910-07:002010-08-30T19:46:31.910-07:00Another brilliant Just Bill article :) ThanksAnother brilliant Just Bill article :) ThanksMary McConnellhttp://free-from-scientology.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-9250745091436982462010-08-30T15:13:53.875-07:002010-08-30T15:13:53.875-07:00@Hampton Hamilton
So the brain researches at the ...@Hampton Hamilton<br /><br />So the brain researches at the University of Winsconsin are not real scientists ? I urge you to read the article again.<br /><br />they MEASUREAnonKathttp://www.youtube.com/user/AnonKatnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-18212348142386396462010-08-30T14:36:35.666-07:002010-08-30T14:36:35.666-07:00@Paul Adams
Apparently, you are having a discussi...@Paul Adams<br /><br />Apparently, you are having a discussion with me over on ESMB - without me. Makes it a bit hard to continue our discussion.<br /><br />I don't think we are disagreeing. I'm saying that this "Reactive Mind" is completely undetectable. Now that I see your further comments, it appears that, personally, you doubt such a removable entity exists at all - and that, subsequently, "Clearing" is a meaningless term.<br /><br />So what are we disagreeing about? I kind of thought that's what <i>I</i> was saying?Just Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00700571144527474381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-9198265764676384172010-08-30T13:40:13.892-07:002010-08-30T13:40:13.892-07:00@AnonKat
Yes, there is certain evidence that the ...@AnonKat<br /><br />Yes, there is certain evidence that the mind can influence the body.<br /><br />Except real scientists call it "the Placebo Effect"<br /><br />http://www.badscience.net/2009/11/all-bow-before-the-mighty-power-of-the-nocebo-effect/#more-1403<br /><br />Because, hey, what's true is what's true for you, in Scientology - If you feel better, and you think that's The Tech working, then it is! Never mind that you could get the same effect without spending hours of your life, and hundreds of thousands of pounds/euros/dollars/quatloo at your local branch of Cult-U-Like...Hampton Hamilton Hallnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-10166677210298338682010-08-30T12:03:20.511-07:002010-08-30T12:03:20.511-07:00Just Bill I do not feel dumped on. I find your rea...Just Bill I do not feel dumped on. I find your reasoning refreshing.<br /><br />I tend to keep my intrest in ausiting and dianetics to things I can relate to. Like the "fact" that the e-meter is basicly a crude lie detector. It does measure something produced by the body and as such I want to discuss it. I alsoo dived into Psycho Somatic Illlness and behold an intresting techniques popped up . I am sure you find it vagely familiar. Of course the article could be crap but see foir yourself<br /><br />http://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/what-is-psychosomatic-illness<br /><br />Alsoo with regards to body-mind or rather mind-brain I have found this article very enlightning.<br /><br />http://www.dalailama.com/news/post/104-how-thinking-can-change-the-brain<br /><br />"How Thinking Can Change the Brain<br />January 29th 2007<br /><br />20 Jan 2007 (Sharon Begley, Wall Street Journal) Dalai Lama helps scientists show the power of the mind to sculpt our gray matter.<br /><br />Although science and religion are often in conflict, the Dalai Lama takes a different approach. Every year or so the head of Tibetan Buddhism invites a group of scientists to his home in Dharamsala, in Northern India, to discuss their work and how Buddhism might contribute to it.<br /><br />In 2004 the subject was neuroplasticity, the ability of the brain to change its structure and function in response to experience. The following are vignettes adapted from 'Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain,' which describes this emerging area of science:<br /><br />The Dalai Lama, who had watched a brain operation during a visit to an American medical school over a decade earlier, asked the surgeons a startling question: Can the mind shape brain matter?" More at above posted link.<br /><br />And this nice clip<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C-oRO6Bxz4AnonKathttp://www.youtube.com/user/AnonKatnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-33563089850248856802010-08-30T11:02:44.390-07:002010-08-30T11:02:44.390-07:00@Anonkat
I apologize for dumping on you. I reall...@Anonkat<br /><br />I apologize for dumping on you. I really <i>do</i> enjoy learning about different theories, as long as we all recognize they are theories.<br /><br />I try to ensure that, on this blog at least, facts really are facts, and theories are properly labeled.Just Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00700571144527474381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-10555917811357742042010-08-30T10:38:47.699-07:002010-08-30T10:38:47.699-07:00It is indeed a theory of how/why it works. If prov...It is indeed a theory of how/why it works. If proven you have the scientific backing that it works. And the connection with the mind/brain.<br /><br />Sorry to have waisted your time. I started reading alot on Neuro-Motoric training because of my ADHD. A tool to better myself.Anonkathttp://www.youtube.com/user/AnonKatnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-25510686851338763312010-08-30T10:16:33.988-07:002010-08-30T10:16:33.988-07:00Re: Super Power
No, Super Power is supposed to be...Re: Super Power<br /><br />No, Super Power is supposed to be something that can be delivered to non-Scientologists. It was promoted by Hubbard as something that could (and should) be run on all government officials to finally "make planetary clearing possible".Just Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00700571144527474381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-19966058378049390472010-08-30T10:14:04.612-07:002010-08-30T10:14:04.612-07:00@AnonKat
And you've tested this, how?
I don&...@AnonKat<br /><br />And you've tested this, how?<br /><br />I don't mean to dump on you, but I've heard "explanation" after "explanation" about "how the emeter [does|doesn't] work". All from people who 1) don't have access to an emeter and 2) have never actually tested their theory.<br /><br />And I do get awfully tired of hearing these theories touted as if they were proven facts.<br /><br />I don't have any personal theory to promote, nor any personal ax to grind here, I just wish, in the absence of <i>real</i> and independent research on <i>real</i> emeters, that those who <i>believe</i> one thing or another would, at least, acknowledge that they are talking about unproven theories.Just Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00700571144527474381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-33286346462633446462010-08-30T10:05:46.570-07:002010-08-30T10:05:46.570-07:00Great discussion. I'm going to get personal (t...Great discussion. I'm going to get personal (that's what I do, and I don't know any other way to illustrate my ideas except with personal experiences)on the issue of the reactive mind. I think it is another label, and not a particularly bad one, for the repressed emotions and beliefs that result from unprocessed traumatic experience. <br /><br />My first auditing session,I dealt with the day my dad died in our home of emphysema and heart failure. For a dozen years, merely thinking of that day had made my stomach actually shake, not to mention my mind becoming confused and my breathing, etc. change.<br />After I told the memory in detail repeatedly to my auditor, and she acknowledged me without judgement or herself becoming emotional, I was able to see the memory clearly and evaluate it for myself. Since then I've been able to describe my father's death serenely--without the physical or mental 'symptoms.' Why? This is just one example--I had several more experiences in auditing that translated into a change in my 'reactions' to various phenomena in life. The downside, of course, is that although I became less 'reactive' in life, I was constantly being manipulated and defrauded by the CoS--pressured and lied to, regged to buy more services, donate, go on staff, etc. Apparently Hubbard used his insight into a process that helps people (confession?) to gain power over them. <br /><br />I'm not a fan of Independent Scientology because it keeps the crap along with the only effective, imo, aspect: telling the truth about one's life to a disinterested, ethical, kind person who doesn't evaluate or judge for you. I will always be grateful to my auditors for providing that.<br /><br />I now realize, though, that if I had had anyone in my family (or circle of friends) who was emotionally healthy enough to have provided the same kind of 'listening' that we all need, I would not have needed CoS nor would I have needed to give them $65,000 for mostly not deliverable 'invisible benefits.' Healthy parenting would probably eliminate the vulnerability many of us had to cults and sociopaths. My current quest is to contribute in some small way through my blog and through teaching to this understanding being more widely shared.Vera Keilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12066788663410486523noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-71762841987180434332010-08-30T09:35:02.135-07:002010-08-30T09:35:02.135-07:00Wouldn't "Super Powers" be a level a...Wouldn't "Super Powers" be a level above OTVIII, Bill? Miscavige has been promising that for how many years? I wonder how many millions has he managed to squeeze out of the few remaining Scientologists with promises of "it's on the way!"<br />Also I don't know if you've seen this gem:<br /><br />From: Int OT Ambassador Office PDT<br />To: undisclosed-recipients:<br />Subject: Message from the CO FSSO<br /><br />Hello<br /><br />As the Ambassador Ship for Top Command and you are an OT<br />Ambassador I need to go over a specific Ship target we have been<br />given that is crucial to achieve as it means New OT IX and X coming<br />closer for all. I know you understand what I am saying..<br /><br />http://forums.whyweprotest.net/325-mark-marty-rathbun/marty-there-no-ot-ix-ot-x-levels-70390/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-7951908501924344372010-08-30T09:32:30.356-07:002010-08-30T09:32:30.356-07:00Just Bill regarding the thing you measure with the...Just Bill regarding the thing you measure with the E-Meter two words: Unvoluntary musscle-movement. Those indeed create currents going through the body. And better yet they can occur as outpoor of mental upsetAnonKathttp://www.youtube.com/user/AnonKat?feature=mhumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-76351651449009327452010-08-30T08:29:34.102-07:002010-08-30T08:29:34.102-07:00@Paul Adams
Good to hear from you.
As I have alw...@Paul Adams<br /><br />Good to hear from you.<br /><br />As I have always said, <i>I</i> believe there <i>is</i> something there, and I believe Scientology touches on it -- and may bring some people some relief, even if only temporary. So, I do not dispute your information. But there are "leaps of faith" in your logic that you don't seem to be aware of.<br /><br />Nothing the e-meter does <i>proves</i> the existence of a thing called the Reactive Mind. Nothing the e-meter does <i>proves</i> the removal of a thing called the Reactive Mind. The e-meter may show that "thoughts have charge" but, even if that's true, that does not say that there <i>is</i> a Reactive Mind.<br /><br />You <i>assume</i> that if thoughts <i>do</i> have charge, as Hubbard said, then the rest of what Hubbard said is, ipso facto, true. But that does <i>not</i> follow.<br /><br />In fact, if some thoughts have charge <i>before</i> "Clearing", and thoughts still have charge <i>after</i> "Clearing" (and some certainly do), then what the heck did "Clearing" do?<br /><br />Whether a specific, removable thing called the "Reactive Mind" (not just "charged thoughts") exists or not is undetectable, even with Scientology's own e-meter.<br /><br />The existence of a "Reactive Mind" is, and always has been, a matter of faith. It is definitely invisible, even to true believers.Just Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00700571144527474381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-56445081699701335012010-08-30T08:24:52.962-07:002010-08-30T08:24:52.962-07:00Bill,
What I did was jump on one of your sentences...Bill,<br />What I did was jump on one of your sentences and make a fuss. Perhaps I didn’t read it as you meant it to be read, and it may have led to a little confusion: “Thanks for your thoughtful comment. I appreciate it, but I don't think I agree.” and “However, that doesn't mean you are wrong in your comment, I just see it differently.” I’m not sure where our differences lie, or if indeed there are any.<br /><br />In response to me you say: “The fact that the Reactive Mind cannot be physically detected, measured, tested or verified does not contradict any of the Scientology belief system.” Did I suggest that they did?<br /><br />“The fact that the Reactive Mind cannot be physically detected, measured, tested or verified does not contradict any of the Scientology belief system.” This is a statement I cannot disagree with.<br /><br />“If one believes in the existence of the Reactive Mind, then it is "valid" and I specifically don't care about that for this discussion.” Well, I wouldn’t care for it either -it’s a waste of valuable time talking about things that don’t exist (with somebody who thinks they do)<br /><br />Perhaps I should not have leapt onto the table when I thought you were saying something like: “a belief is valid because it is believed in and therefore not to be debated.” But I did read the whole of your post and found it very entertaining. <br /><br />Madeleine BUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03383109575306362769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-7956881817504806532010-08-30T07:02:08.575-07:002010-08-30T07:02:08.575-07:00It seems to me that what Hubbard called "char...It seems to me that what Hubbard called "charge" can be demonstrated to exist, in terms of encysted (mis)emotions and forces, pressures etc. It is visible when people blow up and get misemotional. Auditors and people being audited have observed charge dissipating, being discharged, through various auditing procedures. Outside of Scientology, one can sometimes dissipate charge by, for example, taking out one's frustration on a punching bag or digging furiously in the garden. Wouldn't you agree these phenomena exist?<br /><br />Hubbard classified all these charged bit and pieces as "The Reactive Mind." It might not exist as some separate mental object, but that doesn't mean the charged bits and pieces themselves don't exist.<br /><br />At OT3 and above the person addresses little bits of wiggle — what could be called frozen energy-consciousness — that react on a meter to some extent, and then cease to react on a meter after they have been discharged. Some people think these are separate entire beings that then leave one's vicinity, although I think it's mostly nothing much more than a bit of charge with some tag of being "alien" (i.e., not oneself) that gets dissipated through the various procedures.<br /><br />I don't see all this as "invisible" phenomena, although "Clear and OT abilities" as promised by Hubbard certainly seem to be generally non-existent.<br /><br />PaulPaul Adamshttp://www.yawnguy.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5588150109003847843.post-58217668285962287442010-08-30T05:52:13.840-07:002010-08-30T05:52:13.840-07:00Dear Sir:
Of course, yesternight I had a cognition...Dear Sir:<br />Of course, yesternight I had a cognition!!<br />Now everything is crystal clear!!<br />The Scientology News Issue 48 just received is like a Compliance Report: pages 46-53, what do you see?<br />Empty building for an ideal Ideal Org. But look more closely: The space is full of OTs and Releases, even the Course Sups are OTs. They do not require any physical body to perform!!!!<br />That is axiomatic and thanks to McMiscavige for bringing all of these to mere mortals!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com