Because of various problems with Blogger, I've copied everything as of November 26, 2012 over to WordPress. The new location is Ask the Scientologist. I am not deleting this blog and will still accept comments and answer questions here too, but any new articles will appear at the WordPress location. I apologize if this causes any problems.

Sunday, October 25, 2009

Strange Bedfellows

The history of the fight against the abuses, lies, fraud and crimes of the Church of Scientology is very interesting in how it has brought quite different groups together in a common cause.

Originally, there were just the ex-Scientologists and a few friends, fighting the Church of Scientology's abuses. In those earlier days, it seemed so very hard to enlighten major media and especially Scientologists as to the truth about the Church of Scientology. This went on for many, many years, and, while there was progress, it was slow.

Then, just a couple of years ago, the fight was joined by the loose Internet association calling itself "Anonymous". They, too, wanted to end the lies, abuses, fraud and crimes of the Church of Scientology, wake up Scientologists and, just maybe, bring an end to the abusive organization itself.

The Internet, Anonymous' home, was something that the Church of Scientology had little experience with. From the very start, the church was at a loss as to how to fight in this new medium. But worse, from the church's point of view, Anonymous also brought with them a new and unbeatable weapon: Humor. It soon became clear that the Church of Scientology had no defense against that.

Enter the next group to join in this fight:


Yes, many true believers of Scientology have joined the fight to bring the lies, abuses, fraud and crimes of the Church of Scientology to light and to wake up other Scientologists to the truth.

To many who have been in this fight for awhile, this new development has been quite unsettling, maybe even alarming. Scientologists fighting against the Church of Scientology? How is that even possible?

Well, not only was it possible, it was inevitable. And it has happened in a big way. It also happens to be the indication of a very, very significant event:

The Scientology bubble has burst!

By that I mean that Scientologists are no longer protected and isolated in the Church of Scientology's protective bubble.

This is quite an amazing thing. Many current true believers are actually talking to Anonymous. They are talking to ex-Scientologists. They are reading newspapers, watching the news, surfing the Internet. The communication lines are open between the outside world and Scientologists.

And those Scientologists, many of whom are not on the Church of Scientology's "enemies list", are talking to other Scientologists. They are having meetings. They are discussing what is really going on with the church. They are sharing stories, real stories, not the bogus "success stories", but the real horror stories about their experiences under David Miscavige's corrupt rule.

This is the worst thing to happen to David Miscavige in a long line of worst things. And he is going crazy -- well, more crazy. In his last bogus event he warned his few remaining true believers against what he called "infiltrators". Yes, indeed, this is a Very Good Thing.

So, now that we can talk to Scientologists, let me give non-Scientologists some suggestions.

Don't argue about Scientology with a Scientologist. It does no good and, really, it is immaterial to bringing the lies, abuses, fraud and crimes of the Church of Scientology to light.

These newly-out-of-the-bubble Scientologists are in for some difficult times. Now that they can read the truth, they are faced with some belief-shaking facts, and they are going to have to figure out how to deal with these major contradictions:
  • The whole structure of the Church of Scientology has been corrupted. What they would call a "Suppressive Person" became the leader of Scientology. What they would call "Standard Tech" was completely corrupted. Nothing stopped him. Nobody stopped him. The Scientology they believed in should never have allowed this to happen. It happened. What does that say about Scientology and Scientologists?
  • If they can't trust the leaders and "top OTs" of Scientology to keep things right, who can they trust? (By the way, for anyone who worries that someone would take over the Church of Scientology and gather all the Scientologists back together, this distrust negates that worry. There is no one they can now trust that way.) This is a major, major shift in thinking for Scientologists. They will need to determine what is right by finding out for themselves.
  • The confidential, super-dangerous OT materials have been seen by, literally, millions and millions of people without one single bad effect. Nobody died. Not only that, but they can now see that just about all the vaunted "OT VIIIs" have already left Scientology. Most OT VIIIs want nothing more to do with Scientology. If OT VIII is the ultimate result of Scientology, then something is very wrong here! In all these troubles in the church, there was no one who demonstrated any of the promised OT abilities to come to Scientology's rescue.
  • If Scientology never delivered the promised Release, Clear and OT abilities, and it didn't, then what does it do? Most Scientologists will vehemently assert that it helped them. OK, but what is it doing? As Scientologists honestly look at actual results they and others have really been getting, they must figure out what, if anything, Scientology is actually doing for anyone. No more empty promises. No more fraud. What is happening? Anyone still believing in Scientology needs to figure this out.
Scientologists are not to be feared or scorned. If they come to help expose the lies, abuse, fraud and crimes of the Church of Scientology -- and especially if they help get the information to all Scientologists still trapped in the bubble, then they are quite welcome to this fight.

If those newly-aware Scientologists still haven't come to terms with the above contradictions, well, their help is still acceptable. Eventually, they will have to come to terms with those discrepancies, but that isn't part of this fight.


  1. Lovely post, Bill. You can flat-out write.

    I would like to see one other thing from the "True Believers" who are seeing the light. I'd like to see them getting proof of actual crimes out to law enforcement agencies. They need to help the FBI and other agencies put together an iron-clad case against Miscavidge and all the rest who are in this until the end.

    I'm pipe-dreaming, probably. Security cameras are cheap, and security guards tend to be pretty loyal to their paychecks. And CoS has plenty of both.

  2. @Cycle Ninja


    I, too, would like to see something like this. Who knows, there are going to be a lot of people out and talking who have witnessed a lot of things. We'll see!

  3. I had an debate/conversation with a Scientologist on youtube the other day. He claimed he was an inactive public member.

    He was still convinced that the whole Xenu space opera story was a made up lie. I tried my best to convince him sighting different sources but he still didn't believe me. Or so he claimed.

    He told me he had only taken study tech and a few other courses. He wasn't convinced by what I said because I've really never read any of Hubbard's books. I only reference that garbage.

    I have know way of knowing if he was who he claimed to be. However it was a different argument than what I'm used. He didn't seem like a typical OSA. He only spouted off a couple of slogans. He Seemed more like a real person.

    Maybe the bubble has burst.

  4. It seems like scientology is in its own civil war at long last. Any word from the inside on what this feels like to them?

  5. Re: Xenu space opera

    He just might have been a regular Scientologists. Impossible to say.

    What non-Scientologists often do not get about the Xenu story is that it is completely unknown and completely immaterial to a majority of Scientologists. This really isn't "core belief".

    Arguing about it may be entertaining, but it really isn't going to have impact on most Scientologists.

    Right now, most Scientologists are very, very aware of the incredible, greedy, heavy push for money by the CoS, and the consistent failure to deliver anything that was promised. If you talk about that, they will know what you are talking about.

  6. Re: Civil war in Scientology.

    From what I understand, on the inside, there is a tremendous uncertainty, but a lot of scary excitement. "Dangerous" things are happening, but Scientologists are finally getting answers to their real questions. It's like their own little "Berlin Wall" is coming down.

  7. I think that the Internet is creating a MASSIVE paradigm shift. It is as big as the shift that happened when the Gutenberg press was invented in the mid 14th century. Suddenly people could read the Bible on their own, and that launched the Protestant Reformation.

    With the Internet, we see history repeat -- only this time, EVERY organization, company and government has had to completely re-think the concept of internal versus external publishing and public relations. Information about hidden initiatives, bad customer service, crappy products, stoning women in a town square, opinions about software systems, etc. etc. can spread like wildfire, held up to the glare of public scrutiny and comment.

    Unfortunately, the Internet is glutted with mountains of horrendous cat-calling, bias, bigotry, opinion, abusive comments, misinformation, bullshit, propaganda, hearsay, and so on. All too many Internet forums/sites are breeding grounds of scathing, downright absurd repetitions of what are practically urban myths -- and not just about the C of S.

    Contrary to popular belief in anti forums, the vast majority of public Scns are intelligent, capable and very, very independent thinkers. They want facts, not opinions. They go to the trouble of checking the sources of the information. They have studied the works of Hubbard and they don't accept out of context quotations. To get to the facts on the Internet they have to sift through an absolute overload of bullshit, complete with outrageous rants and raves. I speak from personal experience.

    Like Just Bill says, you will be so much more effective if you just skip the demeaning statements. It only hinders the reform process because abusive, demeaning actions and statements from within the C of S are something the "true believers" have been quietly correcting and protesting all along inside the Church, long before the Internet existed.

    The Internet is creating a HUGE paradigm shift. Let's make the best of it and use it to spread human rights, dignity and tolerance. If that's the aim, you've got thousands of "true believer" bedfellows -- that's always been the real aim of the "true believers."

  8. The wall may be crumbling, but, it's still up. However, even despite the wall, Scientology and Scientologists have already moved on to the *next* step as seen in 'The Lives of Others'.


  9. Dear Cycle Ninja and others,

    Scientology will not be brought down by any government agency, the government has not been intrested in doing any of that for a long time.

    A major reason is that the subject "Scientology" is owned by non scientologist who are and/or were government oficials, mainly IRS. Once you find the facts about this, the whole war against the IRS shines a diferent light.

    You can find the truth about who really owns CSI, CST, LRH Library, etc... you know, the corporation behind the corporation, if you do your research, it is not RTC the ultimate stance.

    What is the ultimate plan behind that? I can not tell, because only the real players know that, and they are not intrested in going public.

    But it is all highly suspicious.

    If the government ever acts against scientology, it will only be in the service of an ulterior secret reason. Maybe it is their plan to make thing go wrong so that they can justifiably kill the subject. all very secretly.

    Just to make things clear, the US government does not own scientology, rather NONscientologist who are also lawyers and other positions in the IRS and other agencies are the owners of the corporations that own RTC, etc...

  10. @Anonymous RE: Paradigm shift

    I'd mostly agree with you, except for the part where you say Scientologists are "very independent thinkers" who "want facts, not opinions". I understand this is what they think of themselves, but independent thinkers are not allowed in the church and such independent thought is thoroughly punished in every Scientology course room.

    However, as soon as Scientologists become aware of the control-trap they have been in, and start to look around -- as I discuss here -- I believe they do tend to become, finally, more independent thinkers. From my experience and observation, independent thinking is not standard in Scientologists, and it must be re-learned when they finally escape the bubble.

    For the rest of your comment, I am substantially in agreement.

  11. @Joe

    What that next step will finally evolve into is still uncertain, I believe. Whatever it becomes, it will be interesting to watch true believer Scientologists work it out.

  12. @Anonymous RE: Who owns Scientology

    This is a deliberately confusing area. It was designed to be so.

    Read Larry Brennan's affidavit and his blog. He was directly in charge of that whole corporate creation. What you say is not actually in agreement with Larry's information. I trust Larry's information.

  13. Thanks for another great post. I, too, believe the Scn bubble has burst. ABC Nightline's two nite piece last week where Tommy Davis lied so obviously, Paul Haggis' resignation and a young member of our family returning to us from the SO - like an MIA returning that we'd given up for dead. All turn of events I would not have expected before. Now while Int Mgmt is scrambling to cover up yet once again, it would be so great to see some real documented proof of the lies and abuses. Though I think we are reaching critical mass, I hope the journalists dig deeper into more meaty ground, like the deaths, the RPFs, the abortions - and everyone doing anything on line gives an push. This "church" needs to come tumbling all the way down!

  14. Being convicted of fraud in France can't be too helpful to the scientologists.

  15. "independent thought is thoroughly punished in every Scientology course room"

    The huge body of written Scn materials is divided into three very distinct types. 1) Technology: the EXACT processes and methods of auditing someone or remedying a specific area 2) Research and explanatory: the underlying body of research, philosophical and explanatory material, which includes anything that was found during research. Explanatory materials, including promotional materials, interesting phenomena, opinions and jokes and rants made during lectures, tidbits and examples, speculations, and, and, and. 3) Internal C of S policies and directives: These are used to administer and manage the C of S staff post duties. 90% do not apply to public Scns (the vast majority) and most public Scns have never read them because they are not staff members.

    Only the first type, technology, is what is studied in a course room in Scn. The purpose of the course is to learn the EXACT processes and methods without alteration. Students know that is what they are learning in a course room.

    To the remaining materials "what is true for you is what you have observed for yourself" applies.

    Eg of learning technology: If a person is learning architecture, which is very exacting, no one accuses him of being a zombie because he exactly follows the rules for building structures. As opposed to studying the "art" of architecture, why some buildings are more beautiful or not, possible materials to use, opinions about how rooms should be arranged, etc.

    The confusion enters when the two sets of materials are not distinguished from one another.

    Brand new Scns who really have no clue what they are doing or Scns who have very little training often fail to make this distinction and then you get "LRH says this and that" applied to making widgets.

    But the vast majority of trained Scns understand this distinction very, very well and very much have their own opinions, thoughts and ideas.

    Sadly, there are many poorly trained staff people in the current C of S who fail to make the distinction and attempt to enforce "right thinking" onto everyone else. That's a really big part of why you are seeing Scns engaging in reformist activities. Shouldn't have to, but there you go.

  16. @Anonymous RE: Fraud conviction

    And France is totally correct. David Miscavige's organization is committing fraud, every single day.

  17. @Anonymous RE: Independent thought

    You sound like a Scientologist, but you don't seem to have any experience with the way things really operate in the Scientology organization.

    Perhaps you were never on staff. The truth is that in course rooms (where they do study the admin stuff as well) and anywhere in any Scientology organization independent thought is punished.

    In every situation, Scientologists are supposed to ask themselves, "What would Ron do?" They are supposed to find the exact reference from LRH, technical bulletin, policy letter, advice, tape lecture -- even anecdotes and jokes -- where Ron talked about that or a similar situation, and then do exactly what Ron said, without alteration.

    That's what they really do. That is not "independent thinking".

    You quote that old "what is true for you is what you have observed for yourself" that Scientologists think they are doing. Only a Scientologist would think they are doing that -- because it assumes that LRH is always and only 100% correct. It assumes that what you will observe will prove LRH correct. Ha! Since it is easy to observe things that show that LRH was, many times, wrong, it is obvious that Scientologists are not "observing and finding true" for themselves. If they look at all, it is only to find things that agree with LRH.

    I'm not saying Scientologists are incapable of independent thought, they just get out of the habit because independent thinking is punished. Instead, they pride themselves in "thinking like LRH". The most admired Scientologists are those who can quote the "appropriate" LRH information for every situation.

    You know this is true. All Scientologists know this is true.

  18. I see where we are in agreement. My experience with Scns is that they THINK very independently. They just don't say these things out loud. At this point the C of S seems to be engaged on a campaign to stop people from SPEAKING or STATING their dissenting or differing thoughts out loud.

    The HUGE protest you are seeing from many, many Scns is to do with the effort on the part of the C of S to monitor and control their right to speak freely. It looks very hypocritical. The C of S says it supports free speech but in practice, doesn't if a person is an Scn. To many a Scn member, it seems that Scns don't have the same right as other people do.

    For me, this is an infuriating and extremely stupid practice when it happens outside of the course room intended to train people on the EXACT processes, which are supposed to be EXACT.

    As far as policy goes, staffs are supposed to study and use it, and every company I've ever worked for had their own company policies that I was expected to adhere to.

    And oh yes, I have met the Scns that say to every little thing "what would Ron do?" and I agree with you, that's not independent thinking. It is lazy thinking and it is a substitution for one's own responsibility and understanding to just do that.

    Please realize that there are probably thousands of Scns out there who don't do that, know its really dumb and see Scn as a useful tool. Like all tools you choose the right tool for the right job. The purpose of 90% of the Scn materials is to learn how to audit another person successfully. The vast majority of people in Scn don't audit anyone professionally.

    The crazy thing about this is that even LRH himself didn't say "what would Ron do?" Eg. he recommends that people who have poor or no social skills read and apply "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie.

    I guess I do agree with you after all for I think it is fundamentally idiotic to think that Ron has the answers on everything everywhere -- to how to set up a recording studio, what is beautiful or not, how to write computer programs and so on.

    It is very frustrating to be a Scn and have people immediately leap to the conclusion that you are a brain-dead idiot because some other Scn has acted like an idiot.

    I do appreciate your efforts on all this. Maybe some day it will all be taken care of and I hope that you will continue your good works by widening your scope to include all people who find their thinking constrained by peer pressure, governmental manipulation, mainstream religious indoctrination, etc. the list goes on and on and on and on ad nauseum.

    Wouldn't it be great to have a world where reason prevails, tolerance is the order of the day and people are much kinder and compassionate with one another? Blogs like yours really help this to happen.

    Hats off to you.

  19. You're right about the courseroom punishment. I was a college kid when I took my first course and I was used to independent thinking. I remember when I got my first "FLUNK!" on a starrate checkout for daring to question something or another. It was so vicious it was like getting hit with a hammer.

  20. Paul Haggis.


    ABC's Nightline interview with Tommy Davis.

    Predictably pathetic. And hilarious.

    I'm not religious at all, but if I were able to pray, I'd pray for John Travolta to blow next. That might be the death blow.

  21. Your prayers may have been answered already, with Marty Rathbun, Geir Isene and friends spearheading the Scns entry into reform movement on the Internet.

    Marty is one scary dude, having been privy to top management plans and info from 1981 to 2005. Geir Isene is OTVIII, is even-handed, and extremely independent.

    Amongst their friends is Mike Rinder, who worked with Marty at the highest echelons of Scn from 1981 - 2007. You don't hear much online from Mike, but he is every bit as scary as Marty and Geir, as his last post was at the top of OSA, in charge of external affairs for the C of S.

    Marty has personally audited many influential people and celebrities.

    Marty orchestrated the recent Paul Haggis release and brought the problem to international attention with it. He knew that would happen, for a story about a famous celebrity quitting Scn is irresistible to the press.

    They call themselves the "Gang of Five" and they are truly formidable enemies against the abuses perpetrated and enforced by a small cadre of the leadership of Scn.

    They know very well how to get media attention, they know what Scns need and want to hear, and no one can fool them or intimidate them.

    They have no intention of working to take away Scns freedoms by trashing their beliefs. They agree 100% with Just Bill and many others that independent thinking and free speech is essential.

    They want all Scns to have the same protections, rights and freedoms everyone else has and the C of S to live up to its own public statements about human rights and civil liberties.

    They are applying the Code of a Scientologist to the nth degree and setting an example of what can (and should) be done by all Scns and staffs of C of S.

  22. You can see a pic of the "Gang of Five" here:

    Steve Hall's website and proclamation:

  23. Re: Reform

    All this excitement over Marty and other "top execs" working to "reform the Church of Scientology" really makes me rather disappointed.

    If Scientologists still need someone to tell them what to do, what is right, what is wrong, what works, what doesn't work, then they have learned nothing from the corruption and destruction of their Scientology.

    I would hope that true believers would finally start to think for themselves and act based on what they decide is right. If they are all waiting for yet another leader to tell them what to do, then they will inevitably have the same problems.

    I am so annoyed that Scientology, which is supposed to create more causative, more independent, more intelligent people seems to only produce docile followers.

    The only bright spot in Scientology seems to be some in the Freezone, who do appear to be thinking for themselves and do seem to be able to operate without someone else telling them what is right and what to do.

    I do not see anything hopeful in yet another "leader" for Scientology. Hasn't anyone learned anything?

  24. You see these guys as the future leaders? I don't. I see them as an effective group that can bring enormous pressure to bear on the C of S.

    I think what they are doing is a critical first step on a very long process of reformation. I think that process must include, as a vital step, the continued and growing publication of blogs like this one that challenge people (all people, not just Scns) to think, encourage discussion and bridge the gap between unthinking and unquestioning acceptance of information to informed and reasoned choice.

    There have always been leaders and people to follow them and no amount of reform will ever change that. Think about it, aren't you a leader on your own blog? Additional leaders doesn't lessen what you do (and in this case it augments what you do) and in our new Internet paradigm, progress becomes more and more of a collaboration amongst leaders and followers both.

    Great discussion!

  25. You kind of missed the point.

    Most Scientologists did not enforce KSW because they were waiting for orders.

    Most Scientologists accepted Miscavige because he gave them orders.

    Scientologists accepted, even applauded, the corruption and destruction of Scientology because a leader told them to.

    Now, you talk about some people "spearheading" (your word - that means being leaders of) the reform.

    And maybe most Scientologists, being the docile followers that they are, will follow them.

    Or maybe they'll just follow some other leader in some other direction.

    As far as I can see, Scientology mainly produces docile followers instead of independent, causative, intelligent people.

    SCIENTOLOGY DOES NOT NEED ANOTHER LEADER. Scientology needs everybody to take responsibility, observe, and decide for themselves what is right and what should be done. That's what's supposed to happen. That's what Hubbard claimed was the goal of Scientology.

    But I'm not holding my breath. I'm guessing Scientologists will just blindly follow the next fellow in whatever direction he thinks is best. If they're lucky, it might not be too bad, but that way does not lead to freedom.

  26. "Scientology needs everybody to take responsibility, observe, and decide for themselves what is right and what should be done. That's what's supposed to happen. That's what Hubbard claimed was the goal of Scientology.'

    Amen to that. It was always my goal too.

  27. @Bill re: Missing the point...

    The whole point, to me, is that Scientology AS A WHOLE was founded on knowingly false premises as a money-making scam. That's not something that can or should be's something that needs to be exposed and destroyed. Dispassionately, but destroyed nonetheless. This isn't Christianity (which I also view with great skepticism), this isn't a political movement, it's a con. Toss it in the scrap heap.

  28. "it's something that needs to be exposed and destroyed"

    Good luck with that! Anon is busy releasing the materials of Dn and Scn as fast as they can go. If they keep it up everyone will eventually read them and then people will have those ideas... Oops... Some will agree with them... Oops... Some will get the bright idea of auditing/teaching others for fee even if the C of S no longer exists... Oops!

    It seems to me that trying to restrict, curtail, manage the propagation of information and ideas is at best a futile effort, cause after all, its a free world.

  29. @Cycle Ninja

    While I agree that the Church of Scientology is a fraud and a scam, and needs to go away, you will not get any agreement on "destroying" Scientology, the belief system.

    Well, first, that's impossible. You cannot "destroy" ideas. If left unmolested, bad ideas will simply go away. Anything good will continue, perhaps incorporated into something else.

    But second, when you try to suppress some ideas, they gain an importance and longevity far beyond their own actual worth. That is, the suppression alone increases the importance and the number of adherents to an idea.

    Attempting to "destroy" the Scientology belief system is really a bad idea.

    Just leave it alone, giving it no attention and no importance. Let it live or die based on its true value. We can all pretty well guess what the result of that will be.

  30. The Gang of Five, as they're called, truly are leading. They are leading Scientologists that are willing to come into a larger world, a world of other ideas, and out of the "steel bubble", as you've called it in the past. But that's as far as the leading has gone, so far.

    Those with the courage to exit the steel bubble are embracing, even celebrating the experience.

    These newly out Scientologist are still in the process of waking up and in the next few months, we'll see how they respond to the challenges that you described.

    Beyond the practically universal agreement that David Miscavaige must be deposed, there is scant discussion (or leading)about what will take the place of the current DM/RTC regime.

    Meaningful reform will require a tremendous amount of examination of the entire subject of Scientology. Unfortunately there just isn't any "scientological" way to go about this because the subject is organized around a single authority who defines what it is, what is valid, etc. This was originally LRH, who is no longer around, and is now, though chicanery, guile or whatever, DM. And he has "led" Scientology to the sorry state it is in right now.

    One of the biggest barriers to reform consists of the KSW mentality imposed as a key dogma upon every Scientologist, that no one must ever allow the alteration a single thing LRH wrote, except LRH (and now, DM, who is in the "Command" role, has usurped this power) A good argument has been made that KSW, for the most part, applies to exact processes and methods only, but that is not how it is practiced or made to be understood to Scientologists.

    Your comment about there being no one that can be trusted is quite accurate, IMO. But it is my hope that Scientologists can learn to trust themselves and those that use logic and rational argument instead of force and dogma.

    BTW, your comment: "...just about all the vaunted 'OT VIIIs' have already left Scientology."

    What is the evidence that "just about all" have left? That statement seems pretty sweeping.

  31. Re: Gang of Five

    Good observations. It will be quite interesting to see how true believers work things out.

    Will they recognize the failures inherent in parts of Scientology? Or will the "Hubbard is always right" crowd win out?

    Regarding the OT VIIIs: There is, of course, no published statistics. The statement was based on many years of my own, and many, many others' experiences, observations and conversations with OT VIIIs, etc. It is very obvious that OT VIIIs, as a group, stop having much to do with Scientology. That is something that just about all Scientologists have noticed.

    The massive failure of OT VIII is the primary reason David Miscavige won't write and release OT IX and X. His total botch of OT VIII showed him that was a very bad idea.

  32. Nah. There are lots of 8s still in. If DM releases IX and X he won't have anything left to make the 8s tow the line. Also for many there's always disconnection hanging over their heads. This guy is really a bad hat.

  33. @Anonymous

    "There are lots of 8s still in"

    Um, I doubt it, but neither of us has any hard evidence.

    "If DM releases IX and X he won't have anything left to make the 8s toe the line. Also for many there's always disconnection hanging over their heads."

    Hey, if he thought he could get away with writing OT IX and OT X, he'd just be able to write OT XI, then OT VII and so on. If he thought he could get away with it, that would be the ultimate Scientology money-maker. But horrible results from his OT VIII proved that he can't get away with that.

    After awhile, Scientologists just can't take it any more. That really comes true when someone goes through OT VII. By the time someone has finally finished OT VII, they really can't take any more crap from DM.

  34. I am writing this because I am feeling the need to harmonize, in my own world, all the viewpoints I have accumulated in the subject of the future of Scientology.

    The first reason I got into Scientology is that I needed to anchor myself in anything that could deliver a way out of the spiritual misery I was experiencing.

    It took 20 yrs and a simple Scientology tool (writing every single one of my lifetime misdeeds) which I adapted (altered) beyond its intended purpose, and which ultimately served to provide me with the spiritual strength and wisdom, to be able to start generating my own “anchorings” especially, the consideration I can, without the NEED of outside sources, make happen the life I want, and to see Scientology for what it was and it was not. Something I had been strongly avoiding to do to avoid the terror and horrendous depression I had already experienced and knew I would experience if the only hope for a joyous existence, out of what I considered was hell, turned out to be false.

    The point is that to say that Scientology will cease to exist and that Scientologists will one day wake up is, to me, extremely doubtful.

    Most, if not all, Scientologists are in NEED of it rather than want to be in it. Persons, I have known, with an independent and strong spirit, do not become a member or do not stay in it for long. They are neither in a desperate need for answers nor have the need to have Scientology be the answer, and so are able to perceive, quite well, its manipulation and lack of goodness.

    Scientology, in its brilliant construct meant to create a complete dependency on it for the viewpoints one sees everything from, deteriorates or nullifies the ability of the Scientologist to perceive or want to take a look at anything else.

    Coupled with that is the accepted viewpoint that the OT Levels, which most Scientologists have not done and cannot afford to do, is life’s ultimate destination and without it you are doomed.

    Among the most impeding circumstances is the fact (to me) that Scientology has a large amount of valuable (life helpful) information and techniques which to all Scientologist (and to me) is unique and only to be found in it.

    I remember reading a statement from Ron Hubbard indicating a trap in order to entrap must contain some theta (something real and positive), truths that do good. If it was all lies it would not attract.

    That is very true to me.

    So, in my view, we have individuals subtly made to assume a fixed identity (Scientologists) and thus lose all objectivity and critical “thinkingness”, made completely dependent on Scientology for their viewpoints, for what is really happening in their world (E-meter dependency), and for what they should be addressing in it via The Bridge (which, to me, severely disharmonizes the individual and moves him further away from discovering, establishing and following his own path), and ultimately rendered weaker and made into followers and fanatics by the whole construct.

    So Bill is 99.9% right.

    Independent thinkers in Scientology? None…. Except one….. David Miscavige.

    So what is to me, the future of Scientology?

    I don’t know and I am caring less and less as I am am absolutely certain that Karma is taking and will be taking care of it.


  35. Do you ever notice how people always say the same reasons for getting into scientology? Its either I was looking for spiritual help or they were at a low point in their life.

    This just proves that some people are sheep looking for someone to lead them and the rest are just preyed upon by cults taking advantage of their low self esteem

  36. Re: Reasons for getting into Scientology

    You could be right, but I think that's a bit too simplistic. You see, the problem with Scientology is that it promises everything. Want to end war? "Scientology can handle that." Want to lose weight? "Scientology can handle that." Want to help children improve their education? "Scientology can handle that."

    Whatever a person wants to accomplish, solve, fix, "Scientology can handle that." It's a trick.

    For the vast majority of these things, Scientology does not actually "handle" anything, but the promise and the hope ropes some people in -- gullible people, hopeful people, needy people, lots of different people.

    I'd say the common denominator of all Scientologists is gullibility, the willingness to believe that Scientology's infinite promises might just be true.

  37. Having triggered my “evolving viewpoints mode” when I wrote my letter yesterday, having been what “Anonymous” calls a sheep, and having had the condition of “gullibility” that Bill mentions, I can firmly state that, at least for me, all of these conditions are consequences of and not the cause of entering, staying and believing in Scientology.

    Being a sheep and being gullible are, to me, very appropriate labels for those who chose, for whatever reason, to assign fixed and flawed identities to people, or for someone who prefers to be and remain a victim of their own issues.

    What made be being a gullible, low self esteem sheep in desperate need of Scientology was my consistent disharmony with what I considered was right for me to do and not do. A failure to “walk my talk” and to choose the path of least resistance, the instant gratification route.

    That is why the “lifetime misdeeds action” reestablished a harmony with what I was all about and what I should and should not be doing. This produced a recovery of my own viewpoints, an eager willingness to recognize my flaws and weaknesses so I could improve them and grow, and the regaining of the strength and the wisdom and the freedom to guide my life.

    The common denominator, to me, of all Scientologists is a failure to have established their own individuality and to be consistently very proud of that individuality (high self esteem) through doing what one perceives or has recognized is the right thing to do or be doing, and being willing to recognize, acknowledge and correct one’s flaws so one can be growing.

    In the absence of the above one gets, I am believing, the urgent need to be provided with an individuality one can live in, feel secure in, and be proud of, and Scientology can provide plenty of those (Scientologist, OT, Auditor…..) as well as individualities one can ridicule or put down in order to enhance or protect one’s own (Wog, Suppressive, Squirrel, PTS….).

    Perhaps if we saw Scientologists as people existing without their own individuality then we can find the door that opens up to their progressive regaining of it and the abandonment of the Scientologist one.

  38. Skydiving is an awesome experience. There's nothing like it. Hard to describe to someone who's never sky dived.

    Insisting that sky diving is stupid, dangerous, ridiculous, foolish, and on and on and on doesn't alter the experience of the person who sky dived and loved it.

    Perhaps you didn't experience anything when you had auditing. Perhaps you have never had any auditing. But others have, and just like the sky diving example, all the criticism in the world doesn't change the experience the person had. For many, many people it is a good experience and quite often amazing and wonderful.

    That's what Scn auditing is about. Not beliefs in, not belief about, not thinking about or analyzing, not taking things on faith, not taking the word of authorities, or science or critics. Its about deeply personal, revelatory and life-changing EXPERIENCES during auditing.

    You can try to invalidate or rationalize these people's experiences, assert they never happened and were just delusions, tell them they were not wonderful, etc. etc., but just like the sky diving experience, nothing short of wiping out their memory is going to change what they experienced.

    That's the main reason why many Scns don't listen to what you say -- you are trying to get them to say they didn't have an experience they did have. They are offended that you would try to devalue their personal experiences when you obviously never had an experience like they had.

    It is experience-based, which is not a physically measurable event by its very nature, and therefore not possible to measure or subject to peer-review. Just because you didn't experience something doesn't mean someone else didn't. That's why its a religion.

    Just try to get a Christian to explain the born-again experience. They can't. But it happened and explaining to them that it is impossible is telling them they didn't have an experience they did have.

  39. Re: Scientology auditing

    My, my, you have gotten your knickers in a twist over something I never said. Please try to pay attention.

    I have never said that Scientology auditing doesn't do anything!

    Wherever did you get the idea I said that?

    Never said it. I think some people "don't listen to what I say" because those people can't read.

    I know that, for some people, Scientology auditing results in a temporary euphoria, and that many Scientologists attribute auditing for making them feel better. I never invalidated that.

    Are you still following me, or were you unable to read this far?

    What I've said, and no Scientologist has ever contradicted me was, Scientology does not and has never produced the complete gains promised on the Grade Chart for any Release, for Clear and definitely not for the state of OT.

    If Scientology could produce any of that, the whole situation would be very, very different. But it hasn't.

    This is the "secret" that all Scientologists know.

    I have no problem with people "getting gains" from Scientology. I don't dispute that. I'd just like Scientologists to be honest, at least with themselves, that Scientology does not deliver what was specifically promised.

    I know that's hard, but it is honest.

    Now, why don't you respond to what I've actually said?

  40. Actually, I was responding to Cycle Ninja's wholesale dismissal and no, my knickers aren't in a twist. :)

  41. Then I apologize for the unwarranted fuss. :-)


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