It is well known outside of Scientology that quite a number of those "Scientologists" who do show up at the big events do not consider themselves Scientologists. They show up out of curiosity, but slip past the post-event "sales gauntlet" without buying the latest Miscavige release. So even the count of event attendees is inflated -- there are even fewer active Scientologists than event attendance would indicate.
Where are all the Scientologists?
Recently, David Miscavige released "The Basics": A liberal rewrite and repackage of the basic books which were originally authored by L. Ron Hubbard. Based on the "number of Scientologists world wide", Miscavige had a large number of the book and tape sets printed up, ready to be grabbed up by all those faithful Scientologists. "The Basics" were released with great fanfare ... but surprisingly (to Miscavige), very few book sets actually sold! He had tons of books left over. How could this be?
In desperation, Miscavige has now resorted to sending out hit teams of loyal Scientologists, with lists of "Scientologists" who didn't buy the new books -- to force the recalcitrants with threats of dire punishments, to buy Miscavige's new books! But the hit teams are having a lot of trouble. The books just aren't selling!
Where are all the Scientologists?
After a tremendous push, using the heaviest threats over a period of years, the Church of Scientology has managed to purchase a small number of their well publicized "new buildings" but that has been a disaster. The "showcase" buildings bought and renovated at the beginning of the campaign, years ago, are expensive and empty debacles today. The more recent purchases remain as uninhabited shells with no money left to renovate them. The few parishioners who had any money have either been tapped out, have dropped out, or both.
Where are all the Scientologists?
Miscavige's Church of Scientology claims more than eight million members world wide, but book sales and event participation show the numbers, world wide, are in the low tens of thousands. And the numbers keep dropping.
The local churches are empty; course rooms are empty; donations are down; world wide the church's statistics are crashing.
There has been a huge project recently, ordered with the highest priority by Miscavige, to bring all Scientologists' address information up to date -- find out where everybody is! They are using every technique they can think of to track down everyone who ever had any contact with the church -- much to the dismay of those who thought they'd finally managed to stop the junk mail from Scientology. And, again, the results have been a complete catastrophe. What they are coming up with is merely confirming that a vast majority of those "Scientologists" are not, in actual fact, Scientologists. They don't want to have anything to do with the church.
Because of the church's threats of "fair game" and "disconnection", many of those who have left Scientology do not talk about it with other Scientologists. They just stop participating. In this way they can keep contact with friends, family and clients who may still be in Scientology. As a result, the church still thinks these non-Scientologists are "faithful but inactive". They aren't. The number of Scientologists is even smaller than Miscavige thinks.
So, where are all the Scientologists?
Gone. Miscavige's Church of Scientology no longer controls these people. They are free.
- Those few who still wish to practice Hubbard's technology do so as part of the loose association known as the Freezone. Everything is available there.
- Some ex-Scientologists have needed help recovering from bad experiences within the church, especially if they were in the Sea Org. They are recovering.
- But most ex-Scientologists are living good lives, free to look at anything they want, free to think the thoughts they decide to think -- simply living life the way they decide.
Nothing makes you appreciate freedom like having lost it. Experiencing Scientology, and then leaving and experiencing freedom again is wonderful.ReplyDelete
I won't be fooled again.
Yeah, I just stopped showing up after the "last straw". I stopped answering the phone, I had to change my cell phone number and I had to do that "rope a dope" from the constant calls and attempts to contact me for the better part of a year before they started tapering off.ReplyDelete
I'll never set foot in any org again, not after learning what that diminutive little Napoleon has been up to. But that's just the tip of the iceberg--finding that out!
Yes, freedom is very much appreciated after Scientology
I get the feeling this is quite a difference if you compare to like a year ago? Is that so? Or have it been like this for longer than I realise?ReplyDelete
/just an outsider looking in.
It is hard to be sure, exactly, because the Church of Scientology carefully hides all information, but, yes, it is obviously worse now.ReplyDelete
The church has been shrinking steadily for the last 20 years or so, but in the last year the trend has accelerated. Now it's more like an implosion. Even Scientologists can see it now.
The implosion is caused by two main factors. First, the tremendous amount of information now available about the church driven by the Anonymous movement, and, second, Miscavige has definitely gone over the edge.
Yes he has, and I wonder why they say that the Golden Era is located in Hemet when is not, is located in the city of San Jacinto on Gilman Rd, between Sanderson ( also known as Hwy 79 ) and State St which it turn into Gilman traveling North from Ramona Express WayDelete
What utter crap. Scientologists are filling courserooms in their Churches of Scientology all over the world -- those students are studying the basic books. I've seen it myself, I'm studying the basic books and have been enjoying it immensely. Harrassment never stopped Scientologists before -- what makes you think it will have any effect now?ReplyDelete
Thanks for responding. I appreciate your viewpoint. Actually, I think Miscavige's big push on "The Basics" has caused a temporary boost in some course rooms.
But you look closely at this "mini boom". Really look. In your area, how many "Scientologists" are there supposed to be? 40,000 in Los Angeles, for instance. With a massive push on the new "Basics" how many are on course? A dozen or two? Where are all the Scientologists?
Are you paying attention to reality?
And look further. NONE of those on "The Basics" are moving up the Bridge. They have ALL been taken off other courses, other auditing, their progress up the Bridge (if any) has been stopped!
Don't you wonder why?
Willy-nilly, with no regard to whether they were progressing fine or bugged, they were ordered by Miscavige to stop what they were doing, pay $4,000.00 and spend lots of time doing Miscavige's latest "bright idea".
Each time one of Miscavige's out-tech, bright ideas interrupts all Scientologists, a significant number give up and drop away. This is another attack on Scientologist's progress.
Why don't you see what is really going on?
You see "booming" courses -- but it's really a pathetically small subset of "all Scientologists", and they have had their progress "up the Bridge" interrupted yet again by Miscavige. You think this is good?
Nothing I said in my article was false. Miscavige's corruption and destruction of the Church of Scientology will not be altered by "The Basics". Look deeper and you will see the disaster currently going on in the church.
Hey Bill, if you follow the link toReplyDelete
JERE the scieno, to her blog page, there are lots of further links to scieno websites. One thing I found interesting was that many of those sites had not been updated for some time...Just sayin'. The sad part is where they talk about indoctrinating their little kids.
Great blog, as usual! Man, that Jethro pissed me off yesterday. He must be a member of Swineology.
Oh so true.ReplyDelete
Sad to see so many Scientologists decieved. When do Scientologists think they finally got "real" Scientology.
KSW no longer matters.
Also consider that there are about 1500 Sea org members in LA. So the numbers are even worse. Sea Org members are made too go to the events to fill the seats.
The church is on it'e way out. I can't wait!
Maybe if the church were to take responsibility for their actions as they teach others to do, things might be different.
They set themselves on this destructive path.
I broke down near The Golden Era, I was waiting for AAA, a whisper came behind the steel black iron fence filled with brushes, a female voices asked me if I could helper her scape, I told her jump the fence, she said it is electric, then I heard other people walking near inside the iron fence she said I have to go back they are looking for me, she left running back down the dirt mount, them moments later three suited male white approached me from the street Gilman RD.,an asked me how much longer to get my vehicle out of their area, I told them as soon as AAA come and the CHP, at this time they looked at me and left walking down the street entering thru the security gate..Delete
when my car got towed I told the truck driver about it, he told me those guys have security cameras everywhere and if you would have helper scape they would have gone to your house with the cops and charged you with kidnapping and made her also say that, count yourself lucky...
You claim you "overheard someone" saying, "There are 40,000 Scientologists in Los Angeles, and, at best, we can only get 4,000 to the events. Where are the rest?", and yet we have no proof that you didn't just make this quote up. And even if you didn't make it up - so what? What does it prove?ReplyDelete
Then you make random and baseless claims about massive amounts of Basics books remaining unsold to DM's great disappointment. Seriously, dude: Where are you getting your information? You are talking about these things as if you have inside information and as if you know what you are talking about. Let me make it clear - you don't. You speak of the new orgs being "hollow and empty" when you and I both know, you have never set foot in them.
In an even more bizarre twist of logic, you point to the undeniable fact that the Churches of Scientology have acquired many new buildings recently (including a skyscraper and a castle) and then you somehow manage to call this a "disaster". LOL! Up is down, day is night, black is white, owning lots of real estate is a disaster. Allllllrighty then!
Out of one side of your face you claim that no one is buying Scientology product and that there are almost no parishioners left. Then, out of the other side of your mouth, and in the same blog post even, you acknowledge the Church's recent purchases of millions of dollars of prime real estate and that parishioners worked to make it happen. So which IS it? You can't have it both ways.
Either the Church is powerful or it is not. Either it's running out of money or it's not. Either it has lots of faithful parishioners or it doesn't. You conspiracy theorists keep mutating your model of the Church to suit your warped needs, since in some sentences you seek to paint them as a penniless hoax and yet at other times you seek to paint them as a powerful and threatening global conspiracy. Make up your mind.
Wow, you really got excited here. Take a deep breath, calm down.
I'm a bit upset that, while accusing me of having no evidence, you accuse me of things -- with no evidence. WTF? If you're going to pretend to take the high ground, try a little harder.
You accuse me of lying about L.A. Events -- with absolutely no evidence! I really hate to tell you, I'm not lying. They really are bemoaning the fact that they can only get 4,000 to an L.A. event when they should be pulling in 40,000 -- the supposed count of L.A. Scientologists.
Then you ask, "What does that prove?" Um... 4,000 instead of 40,000? Do you see a slight drop in numbers? Wouldn't that raise the question "Where are all the Scientologists?" Isn't that what I'm asking. Isn't that pretty much the point!
Then you take offense at my story about David Miscavige's Basics and say I'm talking "as if you have inside information and as if you know what you are talking about." Um... Seriously "dude", I do. The story is accurate. I assume you've been assigned to one of the "hit teams" to find and force Scientologists to buy "The Basics". Tell me, haven't you wondered why you have to force Scientologists to buy new Scientology books? Doesn't that seem, well, wrong?
Then you go into an extensive rant about the new buildings. **sigh** These are not signs of expansion. These are not signs of health. They are certainly not signs of wealth! You need to read my long exposé on that whole subject. You're so proud of these "new buildings", but the new buildings are killing the orgs. It is a disaster. Look under the shiny covers and you will see how very, very hard it has made things for the local orgs.
The parishioners bought the new buildings, not the church. Get it? The local church can't afford it. They don't have the customers to fill it. Many of the "new" buildings have been sitting, empty, for years because they can't afford to renovate them. Even if they could get the renovations finished, they can't afford to maintain those bigger buildings. The parishioners, who would be taking services were screwed out of every dime and so they can't take any services! Get it? The new buildings are killing the orgs.
No, there is no contradiction or logical fallacy. The new buildings are a sign of extreme desperation for a collapsing church. To put it in your terms, Miscavige is running a "having to have before you can do". Now that's illogical. Do you get it now?
And guess where is running too, Golden Era Studios in the City of San Jacinto, Riverside County, they have a big Mid side Ship ,north, across the Street (Gilman RD), then south of that is the Security Guard House with Iron Gates Street lights n Video Cameras up n down the street, blue trim and white stucco buildings on both side of street and a Castle they build, on entire one block for him David Miscavige's n his movie starts friend, with golf course, security provided by special trained personnel who are outside the church of scientology...Delete
from the hide out, he lives like a king protected by special arm guard
The CofS WAS powerfull. And is finally declining. Thankfully.
He never set foot in an org...he's an exscientologist. As am I.
You and I know most orgs are empty.
I went on mission to several orgs here in the US and every one of them was empty. Two of the orgs has staff members sleeping in the org because they didn't make any money.
As is the way it currently is with most orgs. Even in the more successful orgs the staff get meager wages. $50.00-200.00 a week. If that.
Scientology claims to have 8 to 15 million members worldwideReplyDelete
Mormon membership worldwide is 12.8 million
number of LDS wards within a 30 mile radius of DC: 40-50
average ward size: 100-200 members (average)
members within radius: 4,000-10,000
number of orgs within radius: 1
Scientology lacks any noticeable presence in south america, russia, China, japan, India, most of Africa and the south pacific. So its population density in the rest of the world would need to be higher.
To prove equivalency, the founding org and Alexandria mission would need a combined membership of
4,000 or more Scientologists
Event space they have rented out twice this year: maximum capacity of 300 people
Number of Orgs/Mission worldwide: 150?
Reported number of Scientologists worldwide: 8 to 15 million
Number of Scientologists that would be needed per Org/Mission: 50,000 to 100,000
number of Scientologist purportedly in US in 2001: 50,000
England & Wales: 1,700
New Zeland: 280
2001 Total: 61,980
Number of unaccounted for Scientologists in 2001: 7.938 to 14.938 million.
I'd really like to see if we can get some non-outed anons to join up to see it from the inside out for 1st hand accounts.ReplyDelete
A nice thing to do would be to place a person at every entrance to meter the amount of traffic going in and out of scion facilities - one of those thumb counters - or maybe some investigative journalists in there.
He sure did get excited but there was as much panic as anger.It was as if he was shouting "The ship is not sinking, I am not drowning, the sea is not wet!" and not being able to convince even himself.ReplyDelete
Thanks everyone for the additional information about Miscavige's missing Scientologists.ReplyDelete
You know, back in the day, Scientologists actually knew that the physical stuff, like big fancy buildings filled with shiny stuff, was unimportant. Back in the day, it was about people -- helping people. (We thought we were helping people, anyway.) Today, Scientologists have been fooled into looking at the buildings and ignore the fact that they are empty.
It isn't so odd that Miscavige has completely inverted the importances. Anyone who knows him would expect it. What is odd is that Scientologists went along with it.
One more sad thing is that Scientologists don't even see that they cannot have their own opinion. They think they do but they really don't.ReplyDelete
You try showing a Scientologis the hand writen OT3 data and they deny and deny. But there it is in Ron's written hand. And there's also audio of it as well.
DM feeds Scientlogists the data he wants them to have.
If any Scientologist so much as questions what's happening in Scientology they are either outed and declared very quickly so as not to "infect" the rest of the flock or they are sec checked like mad (which the person has to pay for).
DM runs Scientology with scare tactics. But every day that goes by is another day Scientologists can see for themselves what is happening within Scientology. And for ex members to feel safer to speak out.
The "church" is losing money and now they're trying to get it from their members. Which are already trying to pay $500,000.00 (no joke) for "going up the bridge".
"They really are bemoaning the fact that they can only get 4,000 to an L.A. event when they should be pulling in 40,000"ReplyDelete
WHO is bemoaning it, specifically? And how do you know? Proof or it didn't happen.
""Where are all the Scientologists?" Isn't that what I'm asking. Isn't that pretty much the point!"
Most Scientologists DON'T attend big Scientology events. So what? Who cares? (There was recently a big important Baptist event in my city and my family, who is mostly Baptist, didn't attend that either.) Big showy gala suit-and-tie events only appeal to a small percentage of the population, including Scientologists. *shrug*
"The parishioners, who would be taking services were screwed out of every dime and so they can't take any services!"
Your description doesn't fit ANYONE I know. Seriously. And anyone reading this is welcome to find out for themselves what's going on by visiting their local Church of Scientology. Don't listen to bloggers like him OR me, folks, go straight to the source and see what's what.
"To put it in your terms, Miscavige is running a "having to have before you can do". Now that's illogical."
Consider that maybe, just maybe, he knows something you don't.
Good job as usual Bill. I bet Miscavige really, really, really hates you.ReplyDelete
You say, "WHO is bemoaning it, specifically? And how do you know? Proof or it didn't happen."
Um... No. I'm not giving out information that will help you harass people. But thanks for asking. Tell me, are you claiming that the estimated number of Scientologists in L.A. isn't 40,000? It is. Are you claiming that the events can't even pull in 4,000? That is the average count at the L.A. events. Are you claiming that people involved aren't upset about it? Hmmm? Exactly what is so unbelievable?
You say "Most Scientologists DON'T attend big Scientology events".
ORLY? Is that the line being used to explain it? The question is "Where are all the Scientologists?" For your enlightenment, the answer isn't "Oh, they're still loyal Scientologists, they just don't take any services, buy any books, go to any events or anything else." Do you see how silly that "explanation" is? Those "Scientologists" who emphatically are not involved in Scientology are ... wait for it ... not Scientologists! Get it?
You despute my statement that Scientologists have been screwed out of every dime. You say "Don't listen to bloggers like him OR me, folks, go straight to the source and see what's what". Um... I am that source. I was a "loyal Scientologist" in the field as the church hammered and hammered and squeezed and squeezed. I, and the other "loyal Scientologists" went deeply into debt to pay for these "new buildings". You want the source for that information, that's me and others just like me, who were coerced into very bad financial decisions.
And finally in response to my barb about Miscavige running "having to have before you can do", you say, "Consider that maybe, just maybe, he knows something you don't."
Hmmm. Miscavige "knows something" that makes it a good idea to violate LRH policy? Misavige "knows something" that makes it a good idea to burden all the local orgs with massive expenses when they can't pay their staff today? Miscavige "knows something" that makes "putting the cart before the horse", a good business decision? Well, how about you consider this, maybe Miscavige is incompetent, is violating basic, important LRH policy and is actively destroying the Church of Scientology -- while you applaud!
There are at most some 40,000 remaining Scientology customers world wide. That number continues to drop due to the overwhelming positive consumer advocacy of the past 15 years.ReplyDelete
Along came Anonymous and now the remaining customers are fleeing, and even some crime bosses and ringleaders have fled.
> Then you make random andReplyDelete
> baseless claims about massive
> amounts of Basics books
> remaining unsold to DM's great
> disappointment. Seriously, dude:
> Where are you getting your
We have video coverage of Scientology business offices that have endless boxes of new books stacked up, sitting there gathering dust because nobody real wants to purchase them.
Video taken by the ARSCC and now Anonymous show several of the remaining business offices with piles of worthless books that the crime syndicate's reingleaders try to get their remaining customers to purchase so thatthey can be "donated" to libraries.
We also have many reports around the world of libraries sending whatever few books that customers "donate" straight to the recycle bin because no library anywhere accepts them due to the core criminality of the Scientology crime syndicate.
While Miscaviage continues to "squirrel" everything Hubbard ever spewed while doped to the gills, his effort to save his criminal enterprise is doomed to failure. The ARSCC and now Anonymous are dismantleing the criminal enterprise, something that Federal officers would do if they had the Congressional funding to do so (see Lt. Ray Emmon's Summary Report to his FBI supervisors.)
Scientology customers can get all they need in the Free Zone and they can get it without giving up their freedom, their human rights, or their minds.
Another good post....ReplyDelete
You *really* pushed someone's buttons with this one! Very nice!ReplyDelete
They did get a bit defensive, didn't they? LOL!ReplyDelete
Books stacking up and not sold...well of course. Look what happened with the Dianetics books when they re re re re re released them.ReplyDelete
You know why it was a very well sold book??? Because the church itself bought thousands and thousands and thousands of their own Dianetics books so that it would wind up on best sellers lists. This is fact! My very good friend was one of those people hired to go buy boxes of Dianetics books from the local book stores in his area.
And they were all stored in the downtown warehouse the "church" has. Rotting!
The Church now makes it's own books and can't get them into bookstores very easily.
So they tell Scientologists that EVERY library in the US has a full stock of Scientology books in them...go look for yourself and you will see the lie they've laid.
Great post. I was in the Sea Org in LA. At times I helped with various aspects of setting up the events and driving out delivering tickets to those that had confirmed. Vicky Shantz CO CLO WUS would state repeatedly at musters about the 40,000 Scienos in the area yet only 4,000 would show up. For many events held at the base parking lot I doubt it was even this much, perhaps at the Shrine you could get that many, but hard to say and the top level was where the staff would sit and it was often empty towards the back.ReplyDelete
So where did the 40,000 number come from? Who knows? Scn has never been one to spout off accurate numbers when it came to PR purposes, it's all part of their acceptable truth mindset. Maybe if you counted every name in CF since they've been in LA, but who in their right mind could assume they were all still Scienos? It's obviously another padded stat. So Vicky, don't get all worked up with only 4,000 (if that) showing up. You're likely getting 80% of the actual people who wold even give it a second thought.
Fredric said: "We have video coverage of Scientology business offices that have endless boxes of new books stacked up, sitting there gathering dust because nobody real wants to purchase them."ReplyDelete
That's your own interpretation. In truth, Scientology books are printed only in amounts that are already called for. They're printed in-house as needed, so there's never any oversupply. If you saw mountains of boxes of books somewhere, they exist for a purpose.
"no library anywhere accepts them due to the core criminality of the Scientology crime syndicate."
That's a lie, and anyone can browse the online interfaces of most public libraries to see that there are indeed Scientology Basics books in most libraries.
You said, "In truth, Scientology books are printed only in amounts that are already called for. They're printed in-house as needed, so there's never any oversupply"
You actually don't know what you're talking about, but thanks for trying. Bridge Publications certainly may print "only in amounts that are already called for" but that isn't true of all the churches. They are ordered to buy specific numbers of books -- as determined by Miscavige. And the amounts are determined by the bogus "total Scientologists" in the area. Get it?
The end result of such "ordering" is the huge overstock as described by Fredric.
You can check. The local churches are not allowed to order "as needed", the numbers are dictated from above and are quite excessive.
As for the library donations, I haven't checked personally, but I've seen many, many stories posted on the Internet about "Scientology Library Donations" ending up on Ebay and in used book stores, still in the original wrappers. I've read stories from librarians who are annoyed with such unsolicited and unwanted donations. But, all one has to do is check, the truth is what is there (or not there), not what anyone says.
I am not going to engage in a ridiculous "You're wrong!" "No, you're wrong!" type of argument. It is boring. If you have anything substantial to add to my fund of knowledge, I welcome it.
I see you childishly chose not to allow my last post pressing you further for actual proof of your numerous unsourced lies and claims. There's nothing ridiculous about insisting that someone who makes such cowardly, outlandish accusations should be able to back them up. You have no "fund of knowledge".ReplyDelete
In so doing, you've further demonstrated your extremely small, hateful, and deliberately deceptive nature. It comes as no surprise that you only want to allow comments from your usual gang of yes-men posters (half of whom are probably YOU anyway).
You are being disengenuous. We are not discussing these things in an open framework. You know that I cannot disclose my sources -- because you will then harass, threaten and punish my sources. This is what you want, my sources.
However, you are not so constrained. You claim I am wrong (and I am very willing to be corrected). You could put me in touch with people who could give me verifiable information on the subject, and then no one would get punished, since it would be authorized. You could provide documentation and then no one would get punished.
But you don't. If I am wrong, you could provide the evidence of that. Why don't you?
Here is how the finances of the local Church of Scientology work. This is a bit of a simplification.ReplyDelete
The money comes in. Services, such as auditing, training and the like, goes in one bucket. Bookstore sales, books tapes, meters, goes in another bucket. Pure donations, like IAS, the new buildings, Superpower, go in a different bucket.
At the end of the week the local church does "financial planning" or "FP" for the coming week. They decide how to spend the money. Well, not quite.
There is something else in this picture. At every church there is a post called "Flag Banking Officer" or FBO. This person is not a local staff member. This person works directly for International Management, or, Miscavige. (The "Flag" in the title refers to International Management, not the "Flag Land Base") The FBO has total control of the local church's finances. Certain amounts are always taken right off the top by the FBO and sent to Miscavige, the church never sees it and can't touch it. Certain expenses are dictated by the FBO and the FP committee has no choice in those allocations.
Any of the pure donation monies are off limits to the local church. They go to Miscavige (who can spend these as he wishes). The Bookstore income can only be spent by the bookstore for more books, tapes, meters, etc.
The remaining monies available for the coming week, for allocation by the FP committee are vanishingly small. From this they must pay rent, utilities, supplies and so forth. If there is any money left over, the staff gets paid. Things are so bad that often the rent doesn't even get paid.
Now, down to book ordering, like "The Basics". Normally, these books would be ordered from the bookstore bucket. However, if that bucket doesn't have enough in it, the general bucket is used. So far so good, eh?
It is my understanding that Miscavige has been running "The Basics" campaign as follows: Int Management decided how many sets each local church was going to sell, based on the "known" number of Scientologists in their area -- a bogus number, of course. The local FBO demanded that their local church order that many sets, from the Bookstore bucket if there was money, or from the general bucket, if not. It was not voluntary and the local church did not decide on the amounts. Since the number of "Scientologists" was and is bogus, the church is having a horrible time getting rid of the sets stacked up in the back room.
OK, anonymous Scientologist, I'm ready for your information.
That is exactly how the books work.ReplyDelete
Each org is ordered to have a large stock of them. The org also pays Int Management for the books and has no choice. So if they don't sell (which they don't) the org is stuck with them.
"Most" libraries....ah, that's not what DM said...lol.
"Some Scientology books" that's not what DM said either.
The best way to discuss Scientology with a Scientologist is by speaking truth. They just can't handle the truth.
Denial runs strong in Scientologists.
OK, I cannot publish your response in full because it violates my simple rules. I have never insulted you. Not once have I called you names. I will not tolerate abuse. If you want to restate your opinions without the abuse, I will consider it. If you want to present actual facts, I would welcome it.
I have presented the facts as I know them. You objected to these facts quite strongly, but when I ask for the basis of your objections you refuse to provide any information saying "It's not up to me to disprove your negatives."
Excuse me? Why should I work to disprove what I know to be true? Your reasons for refusing to provide proof are just not logical. You are the one who objects. You are the one who (allegedly) has all the information that disproves my statements. If what you say is the case, it should be terribly simple for you to completely disprove all I've said. But you refuse!
Further, you said, "You don't know me at all, and yet just because I disagree with you about your tinfoil-hat conspiracy theories about Scientology, you're dead convinced that I want to "harass, threaten and punish" people. Can you truly not see how far off the deep end of paranoia that is? Seriously."
I don't know you, but I very, very, very much know Miscavige's Church of Scientology. If I were to publish identifying information about my sources, they would be threatened, harassed and punished by your church (that is, in reality, the "you" I was referring to). Would you deny that your church viciously attacks people it disagrees with?
We critics know what your Church of Scientology does to critics, and we take care to protect people from your false accusations and bogus harassment. When our sources are still in the church, they require even more protection from Miscavige and his henchmen.
If you think people are fooled by your protestations of innocence, you are mistaken. It isn't "tinfoil hat" nor paranoia, when your church actually attacks people for simply telling the truth. Your church fights the truth about itself every day, by any means, fair or (especially) foul. You must know this, since you are on the Internet and can see all the evidence.
If you don't know how vicious and over the top your church's attacks are, then you simply haven't looked. You probably aren't allowed to look.
Look here. When someone makes simple statements about Miscavige's Church of Scientology which are wrong -- all you, or your church need to do is provide simple proof of the correct information. No attacks are needed. No harassment is needed. No name-calling is needed. No need to frame people for bogus crimes. No need to hire PIs, distribute false accusations, spend millions on lawyers, etc. If what is being said is false, simply and politely provide facts. Why don't you?
You're still talking in circles. It's not up to me to disprove your claims. You're the one making the claims, and it's your responsibility to either back them up or not. You have chosen not to. Good luck to you.ReplyDelete
Nice. I must provide proof, and expose my sources to retribution from your church.
And what about you, with all your claims...? You and your church never, ever, ever provide any proof of anything you ever say. That sounds like a generality, but it is factually true. No proof, ever.
The Church of Scientology makes thousands of grandiose claims and never provides any proof.
No wonder you guys have so much trouble. Anyone looking at the Church of Scientology's lack of any facts, evidence, proof would conclude that you're all a bunch of liars.
Ever wonder why this Scientologist posts anonymously?? I'll tell you why....ReplyDelete
Because if the "church" were to find out he/she was posting on any site negative to Scientology, the "church" would have this person sec checked (interigated on the e-meter)and charge them large sums of money to do the sec checking.
Scientologists are scared of their own "church". This is not a joke.
As a Scientologist you are not allowed to question the actions of the CofS. If you do, you are either headed for an SP declare (disconnection with any family in the "church")or lots of sec checks.
The rest of us post anonymously for the reason that this "church" goes after people for speaking out against them. Google "Greg Housh".
Could be. Scientologists ARE forbidden from seeing ANY "unauthorized" data - which is anything outside of the church.ReplyDelete
But this Scientologist could be OSA, someone assigned to troll the Internet and cause problems for anyone posting negative information about Scientology. This is what I expect. But OSA people get sec-checks ALL the time to keep their brainwashing up-to-date. I'd sure hate to be this guy.
Perhaps I'm being "glib," but if I were in debate, and I believe the other party were presenting falsehoods, all I need to do is provide evidence of such.ReplyDelete
Think of it as "defense," which as I understand is not permitted by Tech; in defense all you need to do is present sufficient evidence to discredit the accuser. No need not prove your full point, only discredit with fact, or "datum," a verifiable contrast.
Here is my challenge. I see in the latest post, Bill has posted links to census data to back up some of the claims laid forth. If the defensive side wishes to sway my opinion, he or she only needs to provide a source more compelling that those in the post. After all, we're all to make our own decisions, both in the wog world, and in the LRH doctrine.
Please show me, both of you, your cards.
Ah, omnompdx! You are asking the impossible of the Scientologists. They cannot provide and proof of their belief of Scientology's "expansion" for two reasons.ReplyDelete
First, of course, is that Scientologists may "only attack, never defend", according to Hubbard.
But second, because they have no evidence.
But, of course, we all knew that.
I've been following this conversation... just for grins, I checked the website for the county libraries. They do have a whopping total of 4 (count 'em FOUR) books between all the branches relating to LRH, Dianetics or CoS. When I say 4 books, i don't mean just 4 titles. I mean 4 seperate volumes of bound, printed matter to cover a 15 mile radius.ReplyDelete
Forgive me please. My BS-O-Meter buries itself in the red zone when listening to the arguments of the indoctrinated. I can be a bit snarky.
Anyway... I would imagine you will not hear much more from your CoS friend as you remain unruffled even as you expose the conversation for what it is... CoS authorized trolling and attempted subjugation of those whose eyes have been opened. Well done.
BTW: The tin-foil hat sounds hot. Perhaps I should make one.
Well, I am a bit late to the party, but would like to add my $.02.ReplyDelete
I assume the big event held recently in L.A. that was mentioned was the IAS event held November 1, 2008. Unlike past years, this year's event occurred in the parking lot of Big Blue under large tents, while in the past, it has been held at the Shrine.
This indicates the following:
Either they don't have enough people to warrant renting the Shrine...too few people for even Photoshop to help.
Money is a little tight
If scientology is doing so well, the top of Big Blue (Formerly the Cedars of Lebanon Hospital) damaged by the 1994 Northridge earthquake would have been repaired by now...and not covered by a white tarp. Additionally, the vertical sign testing center on Hollywood Blvd and the Braley Building in Pasadena(purchased 2 years ago) would also not be the mainly empty hulls they are now.
Thanks Anonymous. I hadn't heard about the Shrine vs. the Parking Lot. LOL! Hard times!ReplyDelete
I was recently in attendance at the 11/01/08 IAS event at Big Blue. I was surprised at the low attendance. It was less than I expected. LOL! Also, I was recently on the Basics courses at an Org and often I was only one of TWO students on course. So much for booming courserooms. LOL again!!! I just recently began reading anti Scientology websites and I was so relieved that I am not alone in my growing suspicion of Int Management. What a blowdown! While on the Basics my TA was constantly cranking higher and higher. What a bunch of squirrels. Don't you love the way that all of us reading KSW dozens of times had no effect whatsoever when DM the master squirrel started altering the tech. What a crock. I am totally bewildered how anyone can take that midget seriously anymore. (BTW, I didn't finish the Basics -- I couldn't stomach it any more.) Keep up the good work Just Dave.ReplyDelete
Oops -- correction to my previous posting -- "Keep up the good work Just Bill."ReplyDelete
I know where at least one previously dedicated Scientologist is now. She went insane after completing OT V a few years ago at AOLA at a cost to her of $70,000. She now lives in total poverty and her beloved CO$ has abandoned her. Is this how a church treats a dedicated parishioner? CO$ staff had the nerve to visit her and try to sell her the Basics. When they realized that she had no income and no $, they took what remaining $ she had on account and delivered her some of the Basic books. Truly not an act of compassion. More like, get those stats even if it's an overt product. (Bill, I don't know if you want to post her name. I will leave it up to your judgment.) [No, I don't want to add to her problems, but this is a very sad story - Just Bill]ReplyDelete
I went to 3 local libraries looking for Scientology books. The catalog listed a handful (no where near a complete set) but they weren't there.ReplyDelete
Friend of mine has a huge pile of the books from his library. Libraries usually return them or throw them out. In this case the library still had a box of them, unopened. He asked for them, and they were glad to be rid of them.
Facts. Scientologists can't handle them.
I am an ex UK staff member.ReplyDelete
Here are the facts:
No one on course in CC London save a few staff members and one psyche case who is only allowed to train.
No one on course in London Org outside of 'the basics rush' where every person is MADE to get on course or else.
As above for Plymouth Org and at St Hill. Only the usual suspects are in the course room and for the whole of Europe....? Most of the people in the course room are not English, they are Hungarian or Polish. I know... I was a supervisor.
I was at a new mission run by a couple of thugs. During my whole time there (which was one year training and 6 months on the job) I had 5 students. 3 students were personal friends of mine, 2 were friends of the ED. What can I say? It was a train crash.
The mission staff were chucked out a few weeks ago for not paying their rent. That's how well it's doing.
I looked for someone to take over from me due to personal circumstances and contacted every single mission in Europe via email. Out of 35 'mission' emails sent out... 33 emails bounced back as the addresses were 'not working' and only 2 people got back to me. The mission stats are bogus.
The missions in the uk and Ireland total 5 and that includes people's front rooms.
It's a load of balony!
I have been present when "Gold" have been filming at St Hill. We were all ordered into the course rooms to pack it out to make it look good for the cameras.
The course rooms are empty.
The staff at London ideal org total 40. This is the 'winning team' on the latest bumph. "Come and join the winning team and make the ideal org old st hill size..."
In the whole of London you've got 40 people in the ideal org? That's bad. You're not st hill size? Then it's not ideal is it?
OK... so I was sent to ethics and banned from the mission. Why?
I really don't know.
I went to ethics, got floating needles and was still banned.
My ethics were fine....
so in the end I just kept on walking - especially after a whole year of verbal abuse and low down gossip from the ED. Enough was enough.
I am finally free.
I have £2000.00's worth of basics package sitting in cases.
I have lost money on account.
My life time membership t-shirt has gone to the charity shop (the most expensive t-shirt ever) and life has never been better.
No more Thursday phone calls for money before 2pm.
I am now in recovery.
I was a musician and artist of some repute.... and thanks to Jason Berghe's you tube blog I know that I have made the right choice in leaving.
I am rediscovering that I am actually a nice, kind person with positive beliefs about the planet.
No more bookathons, bulldog stress tests where you have to drill for hours about what you're gonna say to 'raw meat' and how you can 'close' a deal.
No more RUBBISH.
Where are all the Scientologists?
Well... they are at the cash point drawing out their hard earned pennies to pay for the removal of body thetans and the latest 'deal' and if they are not there then they are staff like I was and they are writing letters, on the phone and bugging the public to go get money for them from the cash point so they can eat.
It's good bye to all that stuff.
It was nuts.
It is all totally bogus and I am glad that I had the balls to stand up to them all and KEEP MY ETHICS AND INTEGRITY in tact.
I have learned a lot since leaving.
I am so thankful for being expelled.
All the best
Thanks ex-UK staff member. Good to hear you're out. It's all good from here.ReplyDelete
I am going to try to make this is as simple as I can. From my own personal viewpoint.ReplyDelete
I was introduced to Scientology in 1975. As a single parent, I did not get as much Bridge progress as I would have liked, or have the assets or resources to do any more than I was able to afford. I realize now that I was very fortunate in that respect, and also that this is exactly how LRH said it should be, basically.
I did a LOT of volunteer work… because I wanted to. I was volunteer staff as well as paid staff. Mission as well as Org. When I did the Comm Course, I GOT it. When I did the HQS course, I GOT it. When I did the Student Hat, I GOT it. Dianetic Auditor, I GOT it. During my professional intensives of auditing, I was a very cooperative and eager PC. When I attested to Clear, it is because I really GOT it. Staff Statuses, etc. and other things I actually succeeded in DOING before the takeover of the “Church”, were real, and standard, and exactly everything that LRH said they would be.
Once things began to not work, or didn't seem right, I would either try to write up about it or talk about it, or I would just not allow myself to be exposed to it. I was fortunate in that I had the awareness to not be subjected to very much out-tech, or black auditing. This is when I mostly went into “volunteer” work or being off-line public for periods of time.
I was an active and contributing and real Scientologist, and also successful at having raised my 4 kids to be very decent human beings, who respect me, and respect the way that I chose to live my life. I don’t think that they would change anything about their lives, and neither would I.
I was also fortunate to have been exposed to 100% Standard Tech with the Mission Holder at the time I came into Scientology being OTVII, Class VIII, and numerous other STANDARD 100% LRH classifications. I will be eternally grateful to him for being absolutely dedicated to insisting on KSW, and APPLYING 100% LRH material at all times… with tons of ARC. There simply is nothing else like it.
Because my life seemed so much more of a struggle, financially, than many other people that I was aware of in Scientology, I made SURE to make every penny or moment count. I did now screw around, or be there for any other reason, except to have faith that LRH really did care enough about me to not lie to me, or anyone else. I was not, nor have ever been, disappointed in the workability of ACTUAL LRH STANDARD TECH.
Because of this exposure, I was able to easily sense when things started not being “right” anymore. Late 70’s, early 80’s is when it started to finally effect the mission I was at at the time. An insidious, gradual, cleverly disguised alteration of LRH and his works which was designed to destroy not only the tech, but the name of LRH and the effect that Scientology had had on our world up until that time. I did some more courses, and some staff time at the local mission here (here no longer…) in the hopes that it would somehow turn around, but finally had to submit a Doubt Formula and route myself out. I was contributing to something that was so evil and altered that I could not be there anymore. I had done all I could, and it just wasn’t enough. I did not belong to that group anymore. This was in 2001. So, 26 years of my life involved, in one form or another, in being a Scientologist. I am still a Scientologist. And proud of it. I know who is who and what is what, and that the Church of Scientology, current, has nothing to do with what L. Ron Hubbard’s goals were.
It is a long and convoluted and wearisome tale since then. I feel such deep empathy for all of those who came after and were exposed to just enough LRH Tech to be baited, but to have not achieved what they came for because it was intentionally altered to prevent people from going truly free.
I am doing great. As always, what I learned about myself and about Life, and the abilities and advanced spiritual awareness gained from being a Scientologist, always carry me through.
Real LRH has never, never, NEVER let me down.
The Freezone is where real LRH still exists. Because it IS standard, it slowly and steadily expands.
You simply cannot stop the truth. It doesn’t matter how much shock, grief, pain, fear, or other lower emotions I have had to go through in my experiences as a Scientologist once I perceived that what Ron had warned us about was actually HAPPENING, because I always just KNEW that “they” could not possibly get away with this, and succeed in enslaving all of us, forever.
I had had the taste of true freedom, and there is NOTHING that can take that away from me. Turns out I was right!
Those of us who have been around for several decades now and so have seen all events unfold as Ron predicted and warned they might, are still at it. Healthier and heartier than ever and still APPLYING the tech. It really IS the only way out for now. It doesn’t get any better.
Do support the Freezone. Us old farts aren’t going to be around in these bodies forever. Someone needs to pick up the batons...
I'm certainly glad that those who still believe in Dianetics, Scientology and Hubbard have various Freezone people and groups to go to.
People should definitely have the right to believe what they believe without coercion or abuse. And, if people believe they are getting gains, that's great!
However, if the Freezone is pretending that they will produce real Clears (as originally defined by LRH), if the Freezone is claiming they can give people the "Abilities Gained" from the Grade Chart, if the Freezone is telling customers that they will create true OTs, then that's just wrong.
Until anyone has actually produced one of these states of being via Scientology, it remains a false promise. It hasn't happened yet. Period.
Even when LRH was directly running things, it didn't happen. People should be fully informed as to what has actually and really been produced via Scientology. Releases, Clears and OTs, as promised by LRH, have not.
If a Freezone practitioner avoids such false promises, I see nothing wrong with believing in some benefits from Scientology.
Just Bill, I'd like to add some info on the orgs having to stock the Basics as you covered above. All you said is indeed how it occurs, but also, all org are ordered to maintain arbitrary "minimum stocks" amounts for every item for sale in their bookstores including Meters.ReplyDelete
Minimum stocks are an area that has been used to pad income to the Gold Base and has been a real financial drain on the orgs. Here's why: every time Miscavige alters and re-releases a text or tape or whatever, each org has to then replace all their current stocks of that item with the new and improved stocks. In other words, each org was ordered to keep several hundred of all the basic books in their book stocks at all times. When the Basics were released, the orgs themselves had to take the loss when those books were destroyed and replaced. So the org is immediately selling at a financial loss whenever they must go through the Miscavage "purge and refill" cycle on bookstock releases.
The old items are called "dead stocks" and in the past, org staff would try to find out about a release and sell them off in advance to unsuspecting public to offset anticipated losses, but I am guessing this was not allowed with the Basics as the earlier books would have been branded "squirrel". So this is just another nail in the coffin you have so well described as having been done by Miscavige. It's been an ongoing situation draining the finances of orgs (saw it with my own two eyes, paid the money to Gold with my own hand) since he started changing shit starting around the mid to late 80s. One of the first alterations and restocks was the Volunteer Minister's Handbooks, and those were expensive to replace. I immediately noticed that the definition of the "Second Dynamic" had been altered in those, and I was a pie-eyed cultie at the time. So people internally are noting these things, they just need a push in the right direction-out!
In the early 90s, Gold released these really cheap, cheesy audio tapes of crappy music. The orgs were ordered to stock HUNDREDS of these things, and no one bought them, ever! We had HUGE stacks gathering dust. It was obviously a money scheme of some kind, Miscavige must have needed extra dough. The fact that these items are all produced in-house is also not a point the culties should be crowing about . The lower costs from them producing everything themselves just makes how much they overcharge for all these items that much more egregious.
One of my favorite dead stock items were the old GO "dead agent" booklets that were PR crap for the culties to use. We had to throw out CASES of those things when the name was changed from "GO" to "DSA".
Boy, just when you think you've uncovered the worst of it, here comes more information showing that, yes, it is worse than you thought.