I’m a bit late on a new Ask a Question. I’ve found that some browsers don’t work too well with Blogger once the comments have gone past 200 and you have to go to another page. On some browsers, you just can’t get to the next page. So, here is another Ask a Question thread.
There are some really great questions and discussions in Ask a Question 1, 2, 3, 4 and the one just before this one 5. I always enjoy going back and reading them.
You want to know something about Scientology or the Church of Scientology? Ask here! You have a suggestion? Put it here. You want to start an argument or discussion? Here is the place. All non-troll, non-spam comments, suggestions, arguments, corrections are greatly appreciated.
Current Scientologist's contributions are, as always, very welcome. Trust me, I don't bite.
As always, I love to hear from you.
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Here is IMO the most important question. Does Dianetics and Scientology work? Mr. Hubbard claimed that by doing Dianetic and Scientology processes, ordinary people could become super-human beings.
ReplyDeleteAccording to Mr. Hubbard Dianetic Clears:
- can completely recall everything which has ever happened to them or anything they have ever studied
- can do mental computations, such as those of chess, for example, which a normal would do in a half an hour, in ten or fifteen seconds
- think spontaneously not merely “vocally”
- are free of demon circuits in their mind to care for various approaches to living
- are entirely self-determined
- are highly creative and imaginative
- never get colds
- are able to do a swift study of anything within his intellectual capacity, which is inherent, and the study would be the equivalent to him of a year or two of training when he was “normal,” and
- have a vigor, persistence and tenacity to life much higher than anyone ever thought possible
According to Mr. Hubbard Operating Thetans can:
- levitate objects
- read minds
- view remote locations and events
- communicate over long distances
- predict future events
- cure themselves of serious illnesses like cancer
- remember past lives
- conduct supernatural healings
- turn back time
- move or affect matter from a distance
- create illusions perceivable by others
- handle things without having to use a body or physical means
- deal with ghosts and haunting, and
- leave their bodies at will and go anywhere in the universe in an instant.
So, here is the primary question. Do Dianetic Clears and Scientology OTs have these god-like powers or not? If they don’t, as Perry Mason would say, "No further questions Your Honor."
As they say in the movies about trials, "Asked and answered". Sustained.
DeleteBill
Actually Bill, I was being facetious in the above post. There are still many questions surrounding the Scientology phenomenon. An associated question to the one above is this: How did Mr. Hubbard convince people who fell under his spell that they had the amazing promised powers, when they clearly didn’t?
ReplyDeleteWell, facetious or not, they are all good questions.
DeleteThe trick, in my opinion, was not that anyone was actually convinced that they did gain those amazing powers but that they were convinced that everyone else had received those powers. They were also convinced that only "degraded, evil people" failed to get Hubbard's amazing, promised gains.
Let's face it, no one is going to be willing to admit to being "degraded and evil", so they all pretend that they, just like "everyone else", had gotten the promised powers.
Part of the vast relief in leaving Scientology is the discovery that no one ever got those powers.
Bill
Only "degraded, evil people" failed to get Hubbard's amazing, promised gains.
DeleteBut how could someone declared Clear (i.e., someone who no longer has his own reactive mind) continue to think of himself as degraded or evil? After all, they would be at cause and supposedly no longer influenced by the stimulus-response of their reactive mind.
Well, it's as I said. While a Scientologist might have been "declared Clear", every time they read the descriptions of "Clear" they are well aware that they do not have the gains, powers and abilities Hubbard promised a Clear would have!
DeleteTherefore, since they secretly know they didn't get the results promised for "Clear", they must, according to Hubbard, be a "degraded, evil person".
All the "declared Clears" and "declared OTs" know they didn't get the promised abilities and gains. And they firmly believe they are the only ones who didn't.
Bill
So what you are saying here Bill is that the end result of all Scientology and Dianetic processing is that the person eventually feels degraded and evil. I find that hard to believe. Surely the vast majority of Scientologists are simply deluded.
DeleteActually, what I am saying that a Scientologist cannot admit that they did not get the promised results from Scientology because they would then have to admit they were "degraded and evil". They are not going to admit to being "degraded and evil" because they certainly don't feel like that.
DeleteWow, talk about cognitive dissonance. As Alice would say, “Curiouser and curiouser!”
DeleteAhhhhhhhhhhhhh, okay Bill, I just got it! The solution to this dilemma is to do the NEXT course, hoping that will fix it! Am I on the right track here?
DeleteIndeed! Every Scientologist continues with Scientology, if they do, in the hopes that the next few actions will start to give them the promised gains.
DeleteMany of the "tech films" in scientology had actors that have since left the church: Jason Beghe, Michael Fairman, and Dan Koon come to mind. Do you know if any of these tech films are still being shown in any scientology academy? Particularly the film TR 0-IV, which Dan Koon starred in: this film, directed by Hubbard himself, has long been promoted as a Hubbard-approved example of what TRs should look like.
ReplyDeleteObviously, I haven't experienced any of the training courses since so many of those actors have left.
DeleteIt is my understanding that every single film containing any Scientology actors who have left the church have been withdrawn and banned "because they were found to contain 'out tech'". Even those done by Hubbard.
I believe some work has been done to edit the offending actors out of those films by using other, "non-suppressive" actors. However, even slow-witted Miscavige must understand that any Scientology actor will likely end up "declared suppressive". Rumor has it that Miscavige was thinking of using only non-Scientologists in his films -- but that's just as insane since non-Scientologists can be "declared suppressive" just as easily and often as Scientologists.
In any case, I hope all those original films are being preserved somewhere, they would be great entertainment on YouTube, don't you think?
Bill
1) Why are there so many divorces/remarriages among Scientologists? I understand the high-pressure in the SO and staff but why even among the public?
ReplyDelete2) Please explain where the vehement hate of not just psychiatry but all of medicine/medical care stems from.
3) What do you think about the merger/alliance with NOI and Scientology's Asian expansion. I find this utterly fascinating and think this will have interesting consequences for COS in a few years. I think this is being overlooked in favor of some of the juicier things but this is very important.
Thank you.
Good questions!
Delete1a) Lots of divorces: Despite Scientology's claims, their primary focus, when it comes to communication, is the restriction of communication. This is accomplished with their strange terminology, their "them-vs-us" mentality and, ultimately, via their policy of "disconnection" if someone steps out of line. It is pretty common, in any relationship, for there to be disagreements. When the people involved are Scientologists and if one of the couple stops being a True Believer, they will be "declared suppressive" and the other person will be forced to divorce and disconnect -- it is not optional.
1b) So many re-marriages: Scientology considers sexual relations outside of marriage to be bad. To stay out of that kind of trouble, Scientologists tend to get married a bit sooner than non-Scientologists.
2) The irrational hate of psychiatry and medicine in general comes directly from L. Ron Hubbard. He originally tried to sell Dianetics to psychiatry as the "perfect solution" to all mental problems. When they debunked his claims, Hubbard took it very personally and vowed to eradicate psychiatry.
As for medical doctors, I don't know why but Hubbard was deathly afraid of doctors and refused to have anything to do with them. He once broke his arm very, very badly and never had it treated because of his fear. This fear/hate of doctors permeated his lectures and became part of Scientology's culture.
3) The NOI/Scientology alliance is very fascinating. Both NOI and the Church of Scientology have a surprising amount of cultish beliefs in common but the alliance makes no logical sense. Hubbard was very racist. Of course, Louis Farrakhan is also racist, but on the opposite side. An alliance of these two UFO cults is strange beyond explanation.
It can't last long. Nothing Scientology does can last long now. Scientology's extravagant claims and fully documented complete lack of results cannot be hidden for long. Some of the NOI members were sold on Dianetics and have been practicing that "tech" for some time now. Now they have experienced for themselves the complete lack of the promised results.
Undoubtedly, a few will have become True Believers in Scientology, but most will not remain fooled. The alliance will fail. The more that Farrakhan pushes Hubbard and Scientology, the more certain it is that he will go down with Scientology. NOI has already split on this point.
Bill
Bill. I haven't heard the story about Hubbard's broken arm before. Source?
DeleteRe: Broken arm
DeleteI don't know of any place where it was written up but I'm sure it has been. However, I got it directly from people who were with Hubbard at that time. I promised I wouldn't say who so I guess that makes me the source right now. He broke his arm while riding his motorcycle -- I believe it was in Greece -- and walked back to the ship. He did not see a doctor or go to the hospital. Sheesh.
I've just gotten a link from another reader: Interview with Kima Douglas. In that interview she talks about the broken arm (and ribs). Talk about someone being deathly afraid of doctors! Double-sheesh!
DeleteThat's an interesting read. Thanks, and keep up the good work.
DeleteThanks for answering. I started looking more closely at Scientology after the Tom/Katie divorce. It's been shocking to learn about the RPF, disconnection, the child/elder abuse and especially the expense. I'm glad you're back to posting and that you write in clear, plain English. I didn't know about the ban on non-marital sex (even for divorcees) and that Hubbard was afraid of medicos. Interesting. Please write more about Scientology's expansion in these new communities especially how run of the mill Scientologists/staff, feel about it.
ReplyDeleteRelated to that, how standardized are fees/services? Does it differ by person or by country? If a person in Barcelona and a person in NYC was say going through a divorce would they get the same recommendations/charges.
Thank you.
I believe that the "required donations" are mostly standardized around the world, at least they used to be. Interestingly, they are based on the various international exchange rates rather than, for instance, the local area's median wage. In other words, what is merely exorbinate in the U.S. would be beyond astronomical in a third world country. This does seem to doom Scientology's push into the third world countries.
DeleteHowever, your question seems to assume that they pay Scientology for the divorce. Scientology doesn't handle divorces, it just dictates that they must occur whenever a spouse has offended the church.
Bill
> In other words, what is merely exorbinate in the U.S.
Delete> would be beyond astronomical in a third world country.
> This does seem to doom Scientology's push into the
> third world countries.
That's a good point - I haven't thought of that one before. The first thing that comes to mind for me, though, is "No worries, just join staff!". Financial oppression is a bit more effective when you completely cave someone in, so the Freeloader Debt becomes a much heavier sword of Damocles, beyond losing your eternity, family, and friends. It also builds stats.
It may also explain part of a push in ANZO. Cultural differences can be used to the Org's advantage; some Asian-Pacific cultures value different ideals than a typical Western culture.
Bill, my only question is "Where have you been?"
ReplyDeleteGood to see you posting again!
I've been around. I actually do a lot of answering questions here, but many of those questions are confidential, sent to me via my Contact me page.
DeleteAnyway, thanks! I might even have another article up my sleeve in a little while.
Bill
So glad you are back. I check in now and then. Usually after I check Marty's Blog. Have you read either of his books? I read the first one, but not carefully. Marty and I are not on the same page on a lot of things. But I like to hear what he has to say.
ReplyDeleteHave you seen The Master? I saw it and would have to say as a movie that I loved some of the scenes but didn't think the movie was satisfying overall. As an ex-Scientologist, I was disappointed. Dodd, The Master, who many thought was supposed to be LRH, was shown as flawed but essentially a good guy trying to help people. I had hoped for a more nuanced portrayal, something showing LRH's truly sinister side as well.
I am waiting in anticipation for that article up your sleeve.
Do you think Jessica Feschbach really had a severe illness...or was it just a shore story because she & Tommy left the church? Sincerely, MeLurkLongTime
ReplyDeleteI have no personal knowledge either way but I would believe it. The Church of Scientology would never use "severe illness" as a lie -- Clears and OTs aren't supposed to get sick, let alone severely ill.
DeleteBill
If Operating Thetans can read minds why don’t they play in all the annual Poker Championships around the country? They would know all their opponents cards and would clean up.
ReplyDeleteIf Operating Thetans can predict future events why would they need to fundraise or work at any boring low-paying job? They could just get up every morning and head down to the local racetrack or casino. Or they work at the New York Stock Exchange. Did I mention lottery tickets?
If Operating Thetans can conduct supernatural healings why don’t they open up clinics around the country and help themselves and the world that way. Who wouldn’t want be cured of a serious disease that modern medical science couldn’t cure? I’m sure these “supernatural healers” would become extremely wealthy and they would help people too.
If Operating Thetans can move or affect matter from a distance, well, do I really have to mention hockey pucks, baseballs, golf balls? They would excel in any sport.
If Operating Thetans can turn back time, why don’t they warn us about horrible events like the 2004 tsunami or earthquakes so we can take appropriate action before the event happens?
I'll just leave your questions here for any Scientology OT to answer. Surely they will answer them shortly.
DeleteBill
Okay Anonymous, I will answer your questions about OTs, from a real OT:
ReplyDeleteWe have to keep a low profile, so as not to alarm the wog world, members of which, on this planet anyway, are prone to "visit the castle" at all hours of the night bearing torches and pitchforks. No big deal to us, but distracting. So we don't do things like knock hats off at 30 yards unless the case could be made, for instance, that the wind did it.
We don't do lottery tickets, or gamble. That is criminal exchange.
A few of us will do supernatural healing, but only in the most extreme cases, where we need someone in the game here longer. It is difficult often, because people are responsible for their conditions, including serious illnesses, and they will covertly (unconsciously) fight you when you are doing any healing on them. They have to be brought to Cause, and auditing them is more effective than making them yet one more effect, by "healing them."
We generally are MUCH too busy handling vital things just keeping this planet here. This is probably above your reality level. For instance, do you remember in grade school in America when all us kids had to learn songs in German to sing on Der Fuhrer's birthday? I thought not. You see, a tight-knit group of us went back in time to make sure Hitler lost WW 2. Or more recently, in 1992, when the advance scouts of an Invader Force replaced the body of Rush Limbaugh with a bag of suppurating alien cockroaches...well, okay, we are still working on that problem...
Now you're thinking, "Okay, this guy is not for real, but I hoped at first that maybe he was." See, I just read your mind.
And as for all of you that passed the word "suppurating" without looking it up, FLUNK! And those of you who actually did know the definition, quit being so fucking smug. See, I just read all your minds too. Exhausting and a bit disgusting.
Okay, got to get back to more Vital Stuff. Thanks for asking.
Well Just Bruce, thank you for coming up with such irrefutable, indisputable, undeniable, unquestionable, certain, convincing, compelling and credible proof for the existence of OT powers. I’ m so glad that what you presented above is fact and not just opinion. I really hate it when people confuse evidence with belief.
DeleteYou say that people are responsible for their illnesses and they will unconsciously fight you when you are doing any healing on them. Do medical doctors know this? If I had a broken arm I’d rather the doctor just went ahead and put a cast on. The auditing could wait. I could be brought to Cause later.
Why have there been many documented cases of Clears, and OTs dying of cancer, committing suicide, etc? Really, why would an OT create a horrible illness like cancer for himself? I don’t get it. Well, as you say, this is probably above my reality level. Duh!
In closing Just Bruce, I and my family would like to profusely thank you for keeping the planet here. I mean it. Thanks for that! And keep up your brave fight against delusion.
Okay, now you can get back to the more important, Vital Stuff.
We have to keep a low profile, so as not to alarm the wog world, members of which, on this planet anyway, are prone to "visit the castle" at all hours of the night bearing torches and pitchforks. No big deal to us, but distracting. So we don't do things like knock hats off at 30 yards unless the case could be made, for instance, that the wind did it.
DeleteHow about going on The Tonight Show and levitating an ashtray? That would definitely pack your orgs. Or how about stopping global warming?
We don't do lottery tickets, or gamble. That is criminal exchange.
What about the Stock Market or sports?
A few of us will do supernatural healing, but only in the most extreme cases, where we need someone in the game here longer.
What about someone is terrified of dying and is willing to pay, or an infant?
We generally are MUCH too busy handling vital things just keeping this planet here. This is probably above your reality level. You see, a tight-knit group of us went back in time to make sure Hitler lost WW 2.
Yeah, well I made sure the SF Giants won the World Series this year.
Now you're thinking, "Okay, this guy is not for real, but I hoped at first that maybe he was." See, I just read your mind.
No you didn’t. I've long suspected you are nuts from reading previous posts.
Okay, got to get back to more Vital Stuff. Thanks for asking.
Errrrr, yeah! You're welcome.
Sheesh, Anonymous! Sorry to get your panties all knotted up!
DeleteAnd here I thought the Rush Limbaugh joke was kinda funny and certain to give it away. . Looking back at it, I guess my set up did sound a bit too much like a kool-aider.
And by the way, we just let you think you made the Giant's win the World Series.
@anonymous...
ReplyDeleteI guess I should have put a little more cheek in my tongue-in-check response...
You're welcome for all us guys keeping the planet here for everybody.
@ Just Bruce
DeleteWell, I'm sorry I flew off the handle like that and insulted you. I apologize. But you knew I was going to do that anyway.
How much do you think a typical church member donates per year? $30 million to influence judges (per a recent news story), all kinds of other PR and black ops and legal expenses (Marty Rathbun says Debbie Cook probably got a seven figure settlement), plus all the new and rehabbed buildings, land, etc... it's hard to imagine that the sort of membership that is currently estimated (50,000 or so worldwide, which would include the Sea Org who donate labor but not cash) could cough up enough dough on an annual basis to account for all of that spending.
ReplyDeleteAs near as I can tell, every single Scientology church in the world is losing money. They can't make rent/lease, they are late in various payments. Right now, not many Scientologists are paying in to Scientology.
DeleteBut some are, and they are paying millions. That's what is keeping these projects going - to the extent they still are going.
The Lisa McPherson expenses are a different story. Miscavige would have gladly tapped into the church's reserves as much as needed to get out of that mess.
This may sound a little trite but why did OT VII Kirstie Alley allow herself to be voted off "Dancing with the Stars?" Why didn't she turn back time à la Groundhog Day and keep doing it until she won. Why didn't she move or affect matter from a distance by remoting forcing people to vote for her. Why didn't she create the illusion perceivable by others that she was the winner? Why?
ReplyDeleteThat wouldn't be considered cheating would it?
LOL! All questions that Scientologists can't allow themselves to ask. If OTs are so powerful, why ... aren't they powerful?
DeleteHi - I just located your blog site. Many in my family were in the upper OT levels of Scientology and I, myself, have found much in the "Tech" and processes to work for me. My mom in "escaping" had some pretty awful experiences in the end. But, with that said, I am looking again at much in my life - at age 60 and an "old Broad" - because I had the most oddball encounter with my last marriage to a man I'd evaluate as a psychopath and his entire hive of "nutters" somewhere on the continuum of narcissism to psychopathy. I'm no therapist, but the trek through a barren landscape in the bowels of the Twilight Zone left me altered. I have even spent no small amount of time looking into studies of this arena - Because my belief systems were shaken substantially. By that, I mean just how I could have allowed myself to play victim with blinders on...
ReplyDeleteGoing back through many of the old books by Hubbard and Minshull's How to Choose Your People (mild in the learning domain, granted) left to me by now deceased family members, I at first thought Hubbard might be trying to aid folks in dealing with these "alien critters" of psychopaths....then, the balance seemed to shift and it almost appeared to be a "training" of sort FOR psychopaths.
After the emotional anguish and loss of balance with ever shifting realities in my last encounter (and these were not intellectual cream of the crop types)- NOW THAT sounds like a GREAT Soap Opera of ANGST, I am restructuring/re-evaluating/ seeking new and perhaps more appropriate belief systems for myself.
I don't really have a particular question...but I'd be grateful for any thoughts on "road-maps" - although I have the feeling it's all quite individual. Thank you for your time.
Hi! I'm glad you found my blog and wrote something. I understand rather well. There are a lot of people in the world who, after various experiences, are left with the question, "Why did I not see it much earlier?" The "it" being the insanity or evil they experienced.
DeleteI certainly don't have the answers. I fell for Scientology. I would hope there was a better way to learn than only through your own experiences. Certainly talking to others and lots of reading helps, but I'm not sure those "lessons" stick as well as "personal experience" (as horrible as that may be).
I've thought about this and I'm torn -- if avoiding horrible experiences requires we distrust others, I'm not sure I'm willing to do that. I think I'd rather generally trust others but just try to keep my eyes open.
As for "road-maps", I do think it is individual. If a belief system contains more than one person, it seems axiomatic that one person is dictating what the rest must believe. I think that's wrong.
Bill
Hi Bill, I was reading one of your answers to an early question about the "definition of time", in which you wrote, "Hmmm. Time is defined by Hubbard, but the definition is too complex to cover here. Hubbard believed and taught the universe was created 75 trillion years ago. It was, he said, created by people, not by God. He taught that the universe is just one very large, elaborate trap. Supposedly, Scientology is the only way out of that trap." I find this belief of Hubbard's quite fascinating because I am very much into comparing religious beliefs. I've never heard this one before, but I'd be interested in reading more of what Hubbard wrote about this and how he came to this belief. Can you possibly direct me to any sites on the internet (or books) where I can read Hubbard's writings on this subject? Thanks so much, and thank you for this site... VERY informative and fascinating!!!
ReplyDeletePeace to you,
Erik
Hi Erik,
ReplyDeleteHubbard's most interesting statements are not in his books, they are in his lectures. Most of his lectures are available today, albeit in carefully edited form (to remove some of his more outrageous/racist statements).
The best lectures are from the 50's when he was totally into his "OT" period, describing the "Whole Track", space opera and the "wonderful powers" that we all used to have, trillions of years ago.
These lectures turn up occasionally on Ebay, Craigslist and such. Look for "Philadelphia Doctorate Course", "PDC" or other lectures from the 50s. Some come with transcripts, so you don't have to listen to Hubbard's voice -- which some find annoying.
Bill
Thanks so much Bill. If you ever happen to come across any particular websites which post these audios or transcripts online for free, please let us know. Thanks again...
DeleteI will. But you know how aggressive the CoS is about their copyrights. It isn't too likely.
DeleteBill
What is TR-45?
ReplyDeleteI don't know of anything in Scientology called "TR-45". You may be thinking of a process written by Hubbard called "R2-45". He was writing a bunch of processes for what he called "Route 2" (hence the "R2") designed, he claimed, to exteriorize a person (get them out of their body).
DeleteWhen he got to number 45, the number reminded him of the "Colt 45 revolver". He carefully doesn't say anything specific, but hinted that one way to "exteriorize" a person from the body would be to shoot them.
Therefore, when a Scientologist speaks of applying "process R2-45" to someone, they are saying "shoot them".
Bill
Is it possible for someone who's not a Scientologist who quit to squirrel by going off into other practices
ReplyDeleteDo Scientologists support people of other faiths? Do they support people who don't want to be Scientologists and want to do their own things cause the support the human rights and say freedom of religion
ReplyDeleteis david miscavige a charismatic leader? Does being in Scientology limit individuality?
ReplyDelete